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Sunday, November 3rd 2013, 6:49am

@NoctyrneSAGA
Carpal Tunnel would like a word.

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Sunday, November 3rd 2013, 6:58am

@tinynerdude

I did read the whole thing, however, I have completely given up going fully automatic because I want to maintain optimal accuracy. I can't even bring myself to go full auto anymore unless it's a CQC 1v1 firefight in which case volume fire wins. However, someone at 15m is fine for tapfiring.

The compensator holds and advantage over the Hbar which is that when paired with a heavy LMG it can fit all the required bullets on a target slightly more then 15 meters away without bursting. The advantage of the Hbar is assuming perfect recoil control for a two round burst out to slightly less then 50 meters all rounds hit on target. With compensator the spread deviation form round 1 to round 2 right then becomes too much and the second bullet misses the target my a millimeter. To find this out I used Sheepnubs optimal weapons range Bob model. So basically when using a compensator you will find yourself bursting less at engagement ranges then the Hbar, but with the Hbar assuming you have recoil control on an almost unrealistic level then you can fit an extra bullet on targets way outside of the optimal engagement range. Thus for the most common engagement ranges Compensator is better then Hbar.

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Sunday, November 3rd 2013, 8:29am

I am sorry but your word is not good enough to be as fact. Post gameplay of some sort, otherwise I am sorry but your argument is invalid.




recoil was pretty stiff, but not unmanageable, especially if i chose to stick to shorter bursts. i purposely magdumped just to show that the recoil was not getting away from me. total mouse movement was about 1 cm per second. 25% ingame sensitivity, mouse is 1600 DPI, windows sensitivity set to 7 with mouse acceleration turned off.

Yes indeed aim is important, but its the spread that will determine who will win if one is moving. You ultimately take away most of your impute in exchange for lady luck.

To find this out I used Sheepnubs optimal weapons range Bob model.


sheepnub's model has been shown to be wrong. not just wrong, but wrong by A LOT. his mistake is that he's treating recoil and spread as following the same mechanic, which they do not; as well as assuming that spread is random, which it is not. that model and equations should never be used for accuracy assessments for BF3/4.

to put things simply, spread isn't random. its effect on weapon accuracy, particularly with shorter bursts and particularly at shorter ranges, is minimal. as long as spread isn't too high, you can almost completely ignore it, since bullets will still end up going towards where you are pointing at.

moving ADS spread is also rather tricky. the stat pages tell you what the moving ADS spread is, while your character is moving at 100% speed. however when you ADS strafe, you don't move at 100%. for LMGs, it's about 30%. your ACTUAL strafing ADS spread is 30% of the distance between the stationary and moving values.

for the M240B that i'm running, the actual strafing ADS spread is 0.15 + (1-0.15)*0.3 = 0.405. or in other words, the actual strafing ADS spread of my M240B is on par with a PDW's STATIONARY ADS spread. this is obviously perfectly usable in short to medium ranges. lady luck has nothing to do with it. your accuracy in that scenario will ultimately comes down to how well you can aim. as long as your aim is good, you'll likely win that engagement because you are presenting your opponent with a moving target, while he is presenting you a stationary one.

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Sunday, November 3rd 2013, 9:04am

the actual strafing ADS spread is 0.15 + (1-0.15)*0.3 = 0.405. or in other words, the actual strafing ADS spread of my M240B is on par with a PDW's STATIONARY ADS spread. this is obviously perfectly usable in short to medium ranges. lady luck has nothing to do with it.

Sure you can mag dump someone right in front of you but what about 20 meters away. You didn't even strafe that fast and yet suffered an immense mid range precision penalty for moving. Thus moving still overrated.
recoil was pretty stiff, but not unmanageable, especially if i chose to stick to shorter bursts. i purposely magdumped just to show that the recoil was not getting away from me. total mouse movement was about 1 cm per second. 25% ingame sensitivity, mouse is 1600 DPI, windows sensitivity set to 7 with mouse acceleration turned off.

Yea but you forgot the comparison video where you show the compensator. Also you did not mag dump without control so you forgot to show what happens with the spread. I mostly say this because I am not concerned with how well you can control recoil with your mouse, but instead concerned with the performance of one attachment vs. the other.
you don't move at 100%. for LMGs, it's about 30%. your ACTUAL strafing ADS spread is 30% of the distance between the stationary and moving values.

Who told you that? For example ADS moving is 2 while ADS not moving is 0.3. Not 30% my friend. No the "strafing ADS spread is the moving value.

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Sunday, November 3rd 2013, 9:39am

you don't move at 100%. for LMGs, it's about 30%. your ACTUAL strafing ADS spread is 30% of the distance between the stationary and moving values.

Who told you that? For example ADS moving is 2 while ADS not moving is 0.3. Not 30% my friend. No the "strafing ADS spread is the moving value.

It was the same in BF3. The moving ADS spread on the weapon stats is for when you are at walking speed. If you crouch walk or ADS you move slower = less moving spread.

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Sunday, November 3rd 2013, 10:05am

Sure you can mag dump someone right in front of you but what about 20 meters away. You didn't even strafe that fast and yet suffered an immense mid range precision penalty for moving. Thus moving still overrated.


as i've calculated, my strafing ADS spread with my setup on the M240B is 0.405, on par with a PDW's stationary ADS spread. since a PDW has no problems hitting targets at 20 meters, i also will have no problems hitting targets at a similar range. i'm not sure where you got your "immense mid range precision (lol) penalty".

Yea but you forgot the comparison video where you show the compensator. Also you did not mag dump without control so you forgot to show what happens with the spread. I mostly say this because I am not concerned with how well you can control recoil with your mouse, but instead concerned with the performance of one attachment vs. the other.


your assertion was that with the heavy barrel, the resulting recoil on the M240B will be so big that it will "cause my mouse to fly off my table". i stated that i think the v.recoil penalty of the heavy barrel isn't very big. you didn't believe me, so i posted the video to demonstrate that vertical recoil is perfectly manageable even with the heavy barrel, on a weapon with 0.6 vertical recoil. the rest of your paragraph was completely irrelevant, since i have the proper tools to model gun accuracy already.

Who told you that? For example ADS moving is 2 while ADS not moving is 0.3. Not 30% my friend. No the "strafing ADS spread is the moving value.


you have serious problems with reading comprehension. your sentence doesn't even make sense.

30% ADS strafing speed is what sym and others found ingame. search the forums and you'll find that info. as for the rest: my setup has 0.15 stationary ADS spread, 1.0 listed ADS spread (ergo grip x0.5 to strafing ADS spread). the formula for calculating ACTUAL strafing ADS spread is 0.15+(1-0.15)*30% = 0.405.

----

if you want to discuss technical game mechanics, you might want to learn those basic mechanics first. otherwise, you'll just end up looking dumb. consider the above a small crash course on spread mechanics.

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Sunday, November 3rd 2013, 10:33am

When using Hbar you have to tap fire more then any other attachment. But this is a hindrance not a advantage.


I'm fairly certain the AN-94 masters would beg to differ. If you can't tap as fast as the weapon fires, that's on you.


QFT. 'Fast' tap firing with adequate recoil control is very difficult but superior once mastered.

Quoted from "tinynerdude"


To find this out I used Sheepnubs optimal weapons range Bob model.

sheepnub's model has been shown to be wrong. not just wrong, but wrong by A LOT. his mistake is that he's treating recoil and spread as following the same mechanic, which they do not; as well as assuming that spread is random, which it is not. that model and equations should never be used for accuracy assessments for BF3/4.


Indeed. Overall, at the current level of understanding, equations cannot be used for accuracy assessments. Later, fitting functions to simulated distributions may yield equations for accurate approximations but this remains to be seen. Simulations >> equations or forum-post math-hammering.
"Less is more? How can that be? How could less be more, that's impossible. More is more." Yngwie Malmsten
"Many bullets help." WoopsyYaya
"most rhetorically legitimate ad hominem 2015" ToTheSun!

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Sunday, November 3rd 2013, 10:52am

30% ADS strafing speed is what sym and others found ingame. search the forums and you'll find that info. as for the rest: my setup has 0.15 stationary ADS spread, 1.0 listed ADS spread (ergo grip x0.5 to strafing ADS spread). the formula for calculating ACTUAL strafing ADS spread is 0.15+(1-0.15)*30% = 0.405.
It took me a long time to stumble upon this little tidbit of the game mechanics, and I'm sure that I'm not alone. The moving ADS speed and actual spread penalty from strafing has got to be the most well hidden part of the gun mechanics, and I'm a bit confused why Symthic doesn't lay out how it works in bright, bold letters. Having to search the forum for something as fundamental as this is frankly silly when the purpose of Symthic is to educate the players on how the game works.

Sorry this got directed at you, when it's more about how Symthic doesn't do its job properly. I hope they amend this in the upcoming stat guide.

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Sunday, November 3rd 2013, 10:59am

Doesn't Compensator reduce the accuracy too much for it to be any useful?

Also, I use the Potato grip. Maybe that in combination with the Comp would be a good setup?

30% accuracy penalty for the Comp is pretty stiff.

20

Sunday, November 3rd 2013, 11:04am

For consoles, yes.


No , not even on console is the recoil of any gun in BF4 unmanageable.