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  • "leptis" started this thread

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Tuesday, November 29th 2016, 11:02pm

Recoil Control: Horizontal Recoil (and 3)

The analysis of the horizontal recoil control is more complex than the vertical recoil one for two reasons:

1.- The Recoil H has a completely random pattern so it is not possible to compare the No Control pattern with the controlled bursts.

2.- The player's response is not continuous. He only acts when he appreciates an excessive cumulative deviation (by events type" right-right-right..." or by the cumulative deviation with weapons with asymmetric recoil).

Due to this difficulty the analysis methodology will be different.

We will analyze the weapons: ACE-52, ACW-R, AEK-97, AUG-A3, LSAT, MG4 and TYPE 88 (24 total bursts).

We know that in an uncontrolled burst the extreme values are increasing statistically with the number of bullets.

In an uncontrolled burst of 10 bullets the statistical distribution of the barrel positions (coordinate X) follows a perfectly normal distribution with a maximum extension that referred to the initial parameters is 3.8 times larger. We know what we can expect in 10 uncontrolled bullets.

Here the result position of the barrel in 5,000 burts (10 bullets) without control (weapon of REC H LEFT and RIGHT = 0.200):

Spoiler Spoiler



The measured distributions are of the type:

Spoiler Spoiler



The total span value measured on average is on the order of 64% of expected: So we can say that the SPECIMEN 0 player controls the Horizontal Recoil by 36%. This would be sufficient for a fast simulation by multiplying the parameters by 0.64 for the recoil controlled scenario. In this weapon, (AUG) the value is 67%.

Not all bursts are so regular. Weapons with strong asymmetry and high horizontal recoil provide distributions like this:

Spoiler Spoiler



Asymmetric and with worse relative control (74%). The irregularity in the peak is due to the small number of bursts measured.

The procedure that we will use to cover the relative differences is to fit a Normal curve that has the same horizontal extension as the measured distributions with the parameters obtained by correlation: Parameter of scale of Normal distribution referred to Total Rec H (Rec left+Rec right) and center of the simulated distribution referred to initial center of Recoil H:

Spoiler Spoiler



As you see there are very good correlation that permit modelate any weapon.

With that adjustement of simulated recoil H is:

Spoiler Spoiler




It has been a very hard project, much more than expected due to small number of measured burts. Now to rest for a while reading posts from other authors. :)

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "leptis" (Nov 29th 2016, 11:08pm)


Miffyli

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Tuesday, November 29th 2016, 11:25pm

Low amount of data/bursts? Why not get more? :whistling:

For some reason my brain is not computing this completely, so asking this dumb question: You fitted a (gaussian) model to the hrecoil compensation and got good results? I.e. we could use that gaussian model to say how player compensates for hrecoil.
I mostly understood the other post. This slow brain-activity is probably due to later hours ^^
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

  • "leptis" started this thread

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Tuesday, November 29th 2016, 11:54pm

Low amount of data/bursts? Why not get more?

For some reason my brain is not computing this completely, so asking this dumb question: You fitted a (gaussian) model to the hrecoil compensation and got good results? I.e. we could use that gaussian model to say how player compensates for hrecoil.
I mostly understood the other post. This slow brain-activity is probably due to later hours


Well...if there are more data i will store them to refine the model...in the future (I don't want to see more recoil for a while :) )

The distribution of statistical position of the barrel during a non controlled 10 bullets burst is a perfect normal distribution with a standart deviation 1.3xRecoil H (right or left or (Rec H left+ Rec H right)/2 In asymmetric recoil. In fact the normal distribution start to be well configured from 3th bullet.

The finding is the controlled burts have also a normal distribution but the standard deviation is smaller.

And in asymmetric recoil there is a displacement of the center of the distribution proportional to its initial value.

This is logical taking into account how the results are generated, since the player does not correct the individual horizontal movements (it is imposible), only limits the maximum values, that is he "squeezes" the uncontrolled distribution.

I can not say what he does in each moment because there is no pattern of comparison, but the end result is statistically that.

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Wednesday, November 30th 2016, 8:44am

@leptis

Oh alright, thanks!

Still wonder how this applies to some pro players. Looking at some of the clips of their shooting the aiming point never seems to move even a millimetre from the target.
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

  • "leptis" started this thread

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Wednesday, November 30th 2016, 11:35am


@leptis

Oh alright, thanks!

Still wonder how this applies to some pro players. Looking at some of the clips of their shooting the aiming point never seems to move even a millimetre from the target.



It can be a technique to control the firsts shots (pulling down the mouse at the time to press the button), but the same result can be got aiming 50 cm down (depending on the distance). However the bursts with early control tend to be worse in the bullets 3th to 10th.

Not move a milimetre is not credible because the recoil up happens in one frame and the player has to move the sight the same amount in one frame too... AND IN THE SAME FRAME!!!.

And he has to follow an incredible pattern. With a weapon that shoots every 4 frames the pattern would be: shooting and correction in the same frame, three frames of immobility and new correction. And this perfectly synchronized.

For these situations of perfect control there is an explanation: Macros.

It is more credible: (Recoil Up + 1 / 4 correction) -- (1 / 4 correction) -- (1/4 correction) -- (1/4 correction) -- (Recoil Up + 1 / 4 correction), etc. wich allows continuous and uniform movement of the mouse. The oscillation would be 3/4 Recoil Up. SPECIMEN 0 has this type of control in the good bursts (no so regular, obviously).

Perhaps this forced continous control doesn`t permit to add the proportional part of the firsts uncontrolled shoots giving a remainder deviation up to the initial line (0.4 to 1 degree).

Another problem is the technological delay between the mouse movement and the action. A delay between click and first shoot of the order of 40-50 milliseconds is observed.

But this is the line of DYNAMIC ANALYSIS introducing the variable time for and not only amounts of recoil and correction in a period of time of many frames.

Is it possible to record mouse movement (orders, not processed actions)?.

PS: In any case, this doesn't seem to be an in interesting issue for forum people. :)

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "leptis" (Dec 1st 2016, 6:54pm)


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Wednesday, November 30th 2016, 12:37pm

Is it possible to record mouse movement (orders, not processed actions)?.

PS: In any case, this doesn't seem to be an in interesting issue for forum people. :)

Like, raw mouse movement? E.g. How many dots mouse was moved in X and Y axis.
Also, how about recording recoil compensation of an aimbot user? That could be quite interesting to see exactly what it looks like.

And indeed people don't seem to reply to these :(. Probably too sciency or not too relevant to their interests ("weapon stats site").
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

Zer0Cod3x

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Wednesday, November 30th 2016, 12:56pm

Still wonder how this applies to some pro players. Looking at some of the clips of their shooting the aiming point never seems to move even a millimetre from the target.

IIRC, it was something about recording on a low tickrate (30 and lower) to make it seem like they had perfect recoil control.
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


  • "leptis" started this thread

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Wednesday, November 30th 2016, 2:27pm

@leptis

Oh alright, thanks!

Still wonder how this applies to some pro players. Looking at some of the clips of their shooting the aiming point never seems to move even a millimetre from the target.

Like, raw mouse movement? E.g. How many dots mouse was moved in X and Y axis.
Also, how about recording recoil compensation of an aimbot user? That could be quite interesting to see exactly what it looks like.


Yes. Some measure of mouse movement in X and Y. The interesting point is "when" that happens.

The aimbot test could be very interesting.

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Wednesday, November 30th 2016, 6:44pm

Probably too sciency or not too relevant to their interests ("weapon stats site").

For me, it is more that "Battlefield 4" is not interesting at all now that "Battlefield 1" has been out.

I have actually been waiting for a proper first person shooter taken place in the First World War for years before it was ever announced.

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Thursday, December 1st 2016, 4:27am

i'm actually with miff on this one, it's just too much stuff to take in at once and i don't care about battlefield and games in general as i once did(well, i actually lost interest in pretty much everything in the world at this point) so when i don't see a clear and concise answer now i just move on without looking...
"I'm just a loot whore."


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