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  • "Natskyg3" started this thread

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Sunday, June 5th 2016, 4:50pm

Effective ROF with 30Hz tickrate and when does SDec kick in?

Copy from my random thread post: So i was messing around with calculating time to minium spread on my beloved SCAR-H and i noticed a few odd thing with regards to 30Hz tickrate quantization. First of all shooting 2RB no underbarrel and stubby yield the same time to min spread according to my calculations, 33 and 1/3 ms. Now i asume i have to wait one frame for it to notice i stopped firing so this works out to and effective 66 and 2/3 ms. This intrested me because of the 30hz tickrate the two first shoots fire at 900 RPM, and 66 and 2/3 ms between shots works out to 570 RPM. That means that, and do correct me if i am wrong, you could with practic fire the SCAR-H at an effective 735 RPM with only 2 shoots worth of SIPS top.

This seems highly unlikely to be the case so i wanted to hear why i am wrong.

Zerocod Said that the SCAR-H has to wait 3 frames for it to resest due to the game having to realise wheter or not you are shooting, so this raises the question: when does SDec kick in?

@3VerstNorth

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Sunday, June 5th 2016, 5:20pm

when does SDec kick in?

You can find the answer on Symthic site:

BF4 Miscellaneous Info | Symthic

Quoted


If spread > 0.0, shot will have random dispersion from the aimpoint. Spread = radius of the circle used for random selection.
Each shot adds spreadIncrease to spread.
Spread will start to decrease when weapon is ready to fire next shot at the rate of spreadDecrease/second.
Check this topic for info on movement spread
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

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Sunday, June 5th 2016, 6:53pm

According to the graphical table in the bottom of this post: BF4 shooting mechanics

SCAR-H is using the row labelled as "620."

In a 30Hz server, each "tick" is 1/30 = ~0.03333s.

For SCAR-H Naked + Naked 2RB, the SDec is ( 0.107 * 2 ) / 9.2 = ~0.02326s which means it will be done within 1 30Hz "tick."

For SCAR-H Naked + Stubby 2RB, then SDec is ( 0.0856 * 2 ) / 6.072 = ~0.02819 which also means it will be done within 1 "tick."

If we say X = bullet out, O = trigger held but no bullet fired, and W = trigger released, then your 2RB-then-reset will look like this:

| X | O | X | O | O | W | X | O | X | O | O | W | X | O | X | O | O | W | and so on.

2 bullets fired every 6 out of 30 frames. 10 bullets every 30 frames. 10 bullets per second. Optimum click-rate of 300RPM. 600RPM bullet output.

Of course, you've seen this: Shoot-and-Recover Time Calculator

I have now set it for this scenario: BF4: SCAR-H vs SCAR-H vs AEK-971 vs AEK-971 vs ACE 23 | BF4 Multi-Weapon Comparison | Symthic

  • "Natskyg3" started this thread

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Sunday, June 5th 2016, 7:24pm

According to the graphical table in the bottom of this post: BF4 shooting mechanics

SCAR-H is using the row labelled as "620."

In a 30Hz server, each "tick" is 1/30 = ~0.03333s.

For SCAR-H Naked + Naked 2RB, the SDec is ( 0.107 * 2 ) / 9.2 = ~0.02326s which means it will be done within 1 30Hz "tick."

For SCAR-H Naked + Stubby 2RB, then SDec is ( 0.0856 * 2 ) / 6.072 = ~0.02819 which also means it will be done within 1 "tick."

If we say X = bullet out, O = trigger held but no bullet fired, and W = trigger released, then your 2RB-then-reset will look like this:

| X | O | X | O | O | W | X | O | X | O | O | W | X | O | X | O | O | W | and so on.

2 bullets fired every 6 out of 30 frames. 10 bullets every 30 frames. 10 bullets per second. Optimum click-rate of 300RPM. 600RPM bullet output.

Of course, you've seen this: Shoot-and-Recover Time Calculator

I have now set it for this scenario: BF4: SCAR-H vs SCAR-H vs AEK-971 vs AEK-971 vs ACE 23 | BF4 Multi-Weapon Comparison | Symthic


Thanks man, was kinda what i expected since it would be messed up with a 735 RPM SCAR.

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Sunday, June 5th 2016, 7:39pm

Thanks man, was kinda what i expected since it would be messed up with a 735 RPM SCAR.

In 30Hz there are guns with certain attachment combos that shoot faster than you expect despite adhering to "optimal click rate" (as in allow SIPS to recover fully). For example I remember the M39 EMR Naked or HBar + no underbarrel can shoot "optimally" at 300RPM despite having a programmed "maximum" RPM of 300RPM. Maybe there are guns + attachments out there that can even exceed "maximum" in extremely short burst lengths and / or extremely low server tickrates, though I haven't seen it yet.

The SCAR-H is not such a weapon (even 1RB works out to be 600RPM effective) but really... 600 vs. 620, what's the difference? 3VN's table says 1 "tick" difference from 12th bullet onwards. Same "effective" in the practical sense. I'd say that it's fine the way it is.

  • "Natskyg3" started this thread

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Sunday, June 5th 2016, 8:13pm

Thanks man, was kinda what i expected since it would be messed up with a 735 RPM SCAR.

In 30Hz there are guns with certain attachment combos that shoot faster than you expect despite adhering to "optimal click rate" (as in allow SIPS to recover fully). For example I remember the M39 EMR Naked or HBar + no underbarrel can shoot "optimally" at 300RPM despite having a programmed "maximum" RPM of 300RPM. Maybe there are guns + attachments out there that can even exceed "maximum" in extremely short burst lengths and / or extremely low server tickrates, though I haven't seen it yet.

The SCAR-H is not such a weapon (even 1RB works out to be 600RPM effective) but really... 600 vs. 620, what's the difference? 3VN's table says 1 "tick" difference from 12th bullet onwards. Same "effective" in the practical sense. I'd say that it's fine the way it is.


Yeah it is quiet fasinating how it works, how 'Bout the M16A4 asuming single shot at 800 RPM for simplicity? I think that it will be able to exceed its RPM just looking briefely on its stats.

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Sunday, June 5th 2016, 9:43pm

how 'Bout the M16A4 asuming single shot at 800 RPM for simplicity? I think that it will be able to exceed its RPM just looking briefely on its stats.

Nope:

( 0.104 * 1 ) / 9.7 = ~0.01072, so 1 "tick" of course.

| X | O | W | X | O | W | X | O | W | and so on.

1 bullet fired every 3 out of 30 frames. 10 bullets every 30 frames. 10 bullets per second. Optimum click-rate of 600RPM. 600RPM bullet output.

You are better off using the default 3RB "Burst" firing mode.

( 0.104 * 3 ) / 9.7 = ~0.03216, which is STILL 1 "tick" in a 30Hz server. Just barely, but it's under.

| X | O | X | O | X | O | W | X | O | X | O | X | O | W | and so on.

3 bullets fired every 7 out of 30 frames. ~12.85714 bullets every 30 frames. Optimum click-rate of 258RPM. 774RPM bullet output.

Not to mention, suffering FSM so much more often on Semi for one, and the inherent physical difficulty in clicking at 600RPM vs. 258RPM for two.

*edit* if you run ANY grip in the 3RB example, then it pushes into 2 "ticks" waiting territory, dropping the bullet output to 675RPM. Even if you try to mitigate that with the HBar, it won't help.

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Monday, June 6th 2016, 1:49pm

Now i asume i have to wait one frame for it to notice i stopped firing

This is where you're not entirely correct.

After the first bullet of the burst, yes, there is only a one frame gap. But after the second bullet, there is a two frame gap where no spread decrease takes place, meaning that you have to wait a total of three frames for your spread to fully reset.

Given perfect bursting intervals, and allowing spread to reset in-between each burst, the SCAR-H can fire two bullets in six frames, giving it an effective RoF of 600 whilst doing so.


At least, AFAIK this is how it works ^^
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


  • "Natskyg3" started this thread

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Monday, June 6th 2016, 2:59pm

Now i asume i have to wait one frame for it to notice i stopped firing

This is where you're not entirely correct.

After the first bullet of the burst, yes, there is only a one frame gap. But after the second bullet, there is a two frame gap where no spread decrease takes place, meaning that you have to wait a total of three frames for your spread to fully reset.

Given perfect bursting intervals, and allowing spread to reset in-between each burst, the SCAR-H can fire two bullets in six frames, giving it an effective RoF of 600 whilst doing so.


At least, AFAIK this is how it works ^^


Yeah, it seems you Were right from the start, as others have said. Just thourght i would move it to a separate thread, thourgh i did credit you on the 3 frame thing, the AFAIK just made me want to get it double confirmed.