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MAA

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Nick 30075

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Monday, December 28th 2015, 11:05pm

MAA

The only real problem with the MAA is that it can camp in out-of-bounds and still be useful at half of the flags, which removes it from the rock-paper-scissors MAA > air > tanks > MAA game.

Still not as bad as attacker out-of-bounds in Rush...ugh, 15-minute rounds in which the teams get a total of 40 kills are just terrible, especially in a faster-paced mode like Rush. BC1 did it better--in Rush, you rush or else.
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Monday, December 28th 2015, 11:39pm

Being able to hit a flag does not necessarily protect it from aircraft, unless they actually land there. You need to hit aircraft, not objectives. Aircraft have only slightly less range than the MAA.
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Tuesday, December 29th 2015, 12:23am

Just because the MAA can reach 3/4 of the map, doesn't mean it can defend that 3/4 of the map. As I said in my previous post, the attack heli (and jets for that matter) also have very good range. Attack heli TOW and TV reach around 715m, rockets reach 750m, and gunner cannon reaches 780m. But for the sake of simplicity, we'll just say the AH has 700m max range for now.

This is why base-camping AA is useless.



  • Red Dot = MAA just outside of base
  • Red Circle = 800m MAA effective gun range. Max range of 30mm, 20mm has already lost a third of its damage at this point.
  • Blue Dot = Tank at B Flag
  • Green Dot = Attack Helicopter
  • Green Circle = 700m range of AH weapons


Yes, the MAA can reach all of the flags from that position. However it can't actually defend any of them from there. The attack heli has enough range to hit any of the flags without ever having to enter the area covered by the MAA. To actually be able to defend a flag, the AA has to push up to within ~100m of it. That's all the range advantage it has against aircraft.

Maybe you think ranges shouldn't be so long. That's fine, but it's not an isolated issue and changing only the MAA range would break things.
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Tuesday, December 29th 2015, 12:24am

The only real problem with the MAA is that
It's a really important asset that one poor player can take out of action for an entire round, allowing the enemy team to air rape at leisure.

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Nick 30075

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Tuesday, December 29th 2015, 1:39am

@Lucid
Yeah, and there's a huge difference between a team with a good MAA and a bad MAA.

.

As for air vehicle ranges, technically speaking, an AH CAN also hit almost the entire map from its spawn. The problem is that it's a ton harder to be effective while hovercamping over spawn (requires gunner who's good with TVs, etc.) and jets have much smaller targets (lower angles). It's also a lot easier for a tank to take cover (hey, a rock three inches tall!) than it is for a helicopter (let me sit behind this conveniently located hovering rock). The heli can play close to the ground but then the gunner is useless.

For an average player, an air vehicle is going to need to be semi-close to an objective to play it effectively.

.

To be fair, BF3 maps don't have problems as significant with AA as the BF4 maps. Basecamping AAs on Lancang can cover most of the map without too much difficult and harass boats with convenient cover in spawn. AAs on Golmud can push towards the top of the map relatively safely and inch out of spawn.

.

Basically, for competitive play, I'm perfectly willing to agree that the MAA is decent as-is. That said, for the 98% of players who have to be aggressive with air vehicles to be useful with them at all, the MAA can effectively counter them from safe spots.

It doesn't ruin game balance or anything at all--rather, I view MAA balance as something that is decent but not 100% perfect.
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23:44 Lt_Col_Jesus: Okay
23:44 Lt_Col_Jesus: I'm stabbing everyone
23:44 Lt_Col_Jesus: Bye guys
23:44 Nick: *flips table*
23:44 Legion: Bye, happy stabbing
23:44 *** Lt_Col_Jesus quit (Quit: off to murder the public at large).

Quoted

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10:41 Dice: Well that would be unfortunate, I was just getting used to him being dead.

Quoted from "Pheozero"

... fuck. Damn you hindsight!

Quoted

23:58 Failure117: CAUSE IM FREEE
23:58 Nick: AS A BIIIIRD NOW
23:58 Failure117: FREEE OF NICK'S WORM RAPE

Quoted

ViperFTW: HEY LOOK
ViperFTW: AN ALIEN LASER FISH THE SIZE OF THE SUN
ViperFTW: I WANT TO SWAT IT WITH MY COMICLY LARGE SWORD
ViperFTW: WITH
ViperFTW: THIS
ViperFTW: AS
ViperFTW: MY
ViperFTW: FUUUUCKING SOUNDTRACK :DDDD
(the album in question)


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Tuesday, December 29th 2015, 1:54am

Yeah, and there's a huge difference between a team with a good MAA and a bad MAA.

Neither of which can do a single thing against a jet intent on destroying it.

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Tuesday, December 29th 2015, 1:58am

As for air vehicle ranges, technically speaking, an AH CAN also hit almost the entire map from its spawn. The problem is that it's a ton harder to be effective while hovercamping over spawn (requires gunner who's good with TVs, etc.) and jets have much smaller targets (lower angles). It's also a lot easier for a tank to take cover (hey, a rock three inches tall!) than it is for a helicopter (let me sit behind this conveniently located hovering rock). The heli can play close to the ground but then the gunner is useless.


Hovercamping heli is not very hard. In fact, I'd say it's fairly easy since you have a fully automatic splash cannon. The helicopter doesn't need cover because it is out of the effective range of a lot of other weapons.

To be fair, BF3 maps don't have problems as significant with AA as the BF4 maps. Basecamping AAs on Lancang can cover most of the map without too much difficult and harass boats with convenient cover in spawn. AAs on Golmud can push towards the top of the map relatively safely and inch out of spawn.


Lancang is a bad map. Nothing to be said there.

As for everything else, the illustration does not apply to just BF3 or BF4. The range of the MAA does not change depending on the map.

What the graphic is meant to illustrate is that a basecamping MAA cannot effectively defend anything from its spawn. Sure, it could cover half the map. The AH can still rape everything from the other half that isn't covered because it's got long range too.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

Nick 30075

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Tuesday, December 29th 2015, 2:19am

Yeah, and there's a huge difference between a team with a good MAA and a bad MAA.

Neither of which can do a single thing against a jet intent on destroying it.

*good jet

I've killed a lot of bad jets with just the cannon when they tried to strafe me. Hell, my main tactic for killing jets is annoying them into trying to strafe me and cannon'ing them down when they do. The average player isn't going to be able to use a jet at 400m, they have to play closer and the MAA wins that fight most of the time thanks to Active Protection.

@Noctyrne
I've tried to play hover heli from spawn with pub-game gunners and I have yet to meet a single (pub-game) gunner who was able to hit anything from spawn. Perhaps I haven't tried it enough (I've only tried it maybe 30-40-ish times, that's certainly not a well-sized sample).

As I mentioned, it is much easier for a tank to get cover from a hovering chopper than a chopper to get cover from, say, lock-on spam near spawn or jets which try to pester it outside of the range of base MAA. That said, from my experience, the average pub-game gunner isn't hitting anything beyond 150m. With the Firestorm map you've shown, an MAA in the US spawn can cover three of five flags from the ranges over which an average helicopter team is going to need to engage the flags.

For high-skill players, the current system is pretty decent. But I have yet to encounter a gunner who was effective at hovercamping.

.

This is just a difference of opinion on balance point. I would rather see the game balanced around the "average" player since that's probably better for the community. At higher-level play, the current MAA is totally fine but for lower-skill (average) players, it's just in a weird spot (and I'm not sure where a "good spot" even IS).

Ideally, I would like to see a timer (which starts on spawn and runs for, say, 30s) after which your team's spawn becomes an out-of-bounds zone. This would "fix" useless basecamping snipers, would fix the problem of too-defensive teams in Rush, would fix base MAA camping. This would make it difficult to come back to enter vehicles and I'm not sure how to resolve that, possibly a teleport-to-tank button? It could also make high-ticket CQ spawncamps more frustrating (forcing people to run up and out of spawn with little cover) which is kind of a problem that CQ just has in general (it's why I like Conquest Assault more than Conquest, the round actually ENDS at some point).
Emperor Nick of the Cult of Defibrillation
Sith Deity of Thread-Killing


I'm basically just a degenerate weeb who doesn't post much nowadays.

I'm secretly Old Man Symthic

Siggy thingies


Gaming Stuff


Words of Wisdom (not really)

Quoted from "Blue Panda"

You're fedorable :love:

Quoted from "ToTheSun!"

I have the highest postcount. Nick doesn't count.

Quoted

23:44 Lt_Col_Jesus: I'm -
23:44 Lt_Col_Jesus: Okay
23:44 Lt_Col_Jesus: I'm stabbing everyone
23:44 Lt_Col_Jesus: Bye guys
23:44 Nick: *flips table*
23:44 Legion: Bye, happy stabbing
23:44 *** Lt_Col_Jesus quit (Quit: off to murder the public at large).

Quoted

10:41 LB: You just...reanimated Steve Jobs.
10:41 Dice: Well that would be unfortunate, I was just getting used to him being dead.

Quoted from "Pheozero"

... fuck. Damn you hindsight!

Quoted

23:58 Failure117: CAUSE IM FREEE
23:58 Nick: AS A BIIIIRD NOW
23:58 Failure117: FREEE OF NICK'S WORM RAPE

Quoted

ViperFTW: HEY LOOK
ViperFTW: AN ALIEN LASER FISH THE SIZE OF THE SUN
ViperFTW: I WANT TO SWAT IT WITH MY COMICLY LARGE SWORD
ViperFTW: WITH
ViperFTW: THIS
ViperFTW: AS
ViperFTW: MY
ViperFTW: FUUUUCKING SOUNDTRACK :DDDD
(the album in question)


NoctyrneSAGA

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Tuesday, December 29th 2015, 2:28am

I've tried to play hover heli from spawn with pub-game gunners and I have yet to meet a single (pub-game) gunner who was able to hit anything from spawn. Perhaps I haven't tried it enough (I've only tried it maybe 30-40-ish times, that's certainly not a well-sized sample).


The most common cause of gunners not being able to hover heli.

Not bringing Zoom Optics.




Game is and should be balanced around high level play.

Leave the average players to infinite monkey theorem their way to victory.

Although that is probably an insult to monkeys.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

ToTheSun!

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Tuesday, December 29th 2015, 2:35am

I've killed a lot of bad jets with just the cannon when they tried to strafe me.

Exactly. Bad jets are bad. You're making outlandish claims like "controlling flags from the OOB", but you're dismissing the participation of good jets.

It's possible that i'm not a super great MAA player, but i've never been able to control any flag on any map from the OOB. Closest i've gotten so such a scenario was in Lancang, but i always had to camp my gimme to have any real effect.