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  • "Alanos Bandanos" started this thread

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Thursday, December 24th 2015, 9:05pm

Downsides to using .12G fletchette rounds?

I've always been a buckshot kinda guy. That's just me but I've noticed recently that I'm not doing so well at putting people down in CBQ mainly because I'm getting hit from somewhere else, usually the guy right behind the guy I just smoked, especially in the tunnels on Locker. Looking for a new edge for my trusty M1014 I checked out the stats for frag and fletchette rounds and I honestly can't see a downside to fletchettes...

With buckshot having a negative multiplier on Chest and Arms running defensive the fletchette just powers through only suffering a moderate decrease in DMG in the stomach and legs which means you're penalized less for wayward upper body hits. Am I missing something here? Or is the only real option for effective shotgunning to load the thing with fletchette rounds?

Shotgun Buckshot
Headshot 1.0x
Chest and Arms 1.0x
Chest and Arms (Defensive spec) 0.85x
Stomach and Legs 0.93x


Shotgun Flechette
Headshot 1.0x
Chest and Arms 1.0x
Chest and Arms (Defensive spec) 1.0x
Stomach and Legs 0.93x
"I'm no hero. Never was never will be."



Miffyli

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Thursday, December 24th 2015, 9:14pm

One of the most apparent positive sides of buckshot is its higher base damage ( see shotgun section ). Shotguns were modified some time ago quite a bit where they also made buckshot viable option compared to fletchette.

Also fletchette has slight piercing capability (eg. thin wood walls) while buckshot has none, and this is a bigger thing than you would first think.

Edit: Oh and almost forgot: Fletchette has slightly smaller spread cone. Eg. 870 buckshot has 2.4 degree cone and fletchette has 2.0 degree cone.
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • InterimAegis - Weapon comparisons/scoring.
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • pmax - Statistical analysis of BF4 players/games.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

  • "Alanos Bandanos" started this thread

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Thursday, December 24th 2015, 9:46pm

Yeah, lemme see if I'm reading the shotgun stats right...

My personal fave; M1014
pellets 12
So buckshot yields DMG of 12 x 11.2 @ <25m. So max base DMG = 134.4 ??

Whereas Fletchette is 12 x 8.4 = 100.8 @ <25m ??

(If that's right the 870 punches out over 200 DMG at <24m. wtf)

That seems pretty dang high, I'm sure I've never one-shotted anyone on Locker with the M1014 with buckshot, maybe I have, but I always tend to put 2 or 3 downrange so I might not have noticed.
"I'm no hero. Never was never will be."



ToTheSun!

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Thursday, December 24th 2015, 9:48pm

Like Miffyli said, flechette is more accurate. Shotguns are used in close quarters, and close quarters maps usually have flimsy cover that buckshot can't penetrate. If you're using full choke, the difference in accuracy is negligible. Otherwise, flechette all the way.

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Thursday, December 24th 2015, 10:13pm

That seems pretty dang high, I'm sure I've never one-shotted anyone on Locker with the M1014 with buckshot, maybe I have, but I always tend to put 2 or 3 downrange so I might not have noticed.

Two things:
  1. Like you noted in the first post different parts of body take different amount of dmg. Stomach+Legs is almost half of the person's whole area (altho you probably aim at chest) which has the 0.93x multiplier
  2. The 2.4 degree spread cone of pellets (for M1014) causes bunch of pellets to miss. You can check more accurate calculations of shotguns' true damage output from this thread by leptis. That + the newer thread he made show that shotguns with less pellets, like M1014, has quite short OHK range of ~10m compared to +20m of higher pellet weapons.
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • InterimAegis - Weapon comparisons/scoring.
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • pmax - Statistical analysis of BF4 players/games.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

  • "Alanos Bandanos" started this thread

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Thursday, December 24th 2015, 10:39pm


Like you noted in the first post different parts of body take different amount of dmg. Stomach+Legs is almost half of the person's whole area (altho you probably aim at chest) which has the 0.93x multiplier
The 2.4 degree spread cone of pellets (for M1014) causes bunch of pellets to miss. You can check more accurate calculations of shotguns' true damage output from this thread by leptis. That + the newer thread he made show that shotguns with less pellets, like M1014, has quite short OHK range of ~10m compared to +20m of higher pellet weapons.
Yeah, I've noticed that on the M1014 when I've shot at someone and they've seemed to tank the hit but when I've been killed they've received a lot less damage than I expected. From the post you linked it's basic probabilities; more lead downrange > more chance of a kill. So I might start trialing the 870 over the M1014 and trade in the RPM for DMG. Though I have to admit that I do get along well with the M1014 but I suppose I should try new things. That and the 870 will give me just that 5-10m extra range as well which can really make the difference.
"I'm no hero. Never was never will be."



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Friday, December 25th 2015, 2:36pm

Buckshot is also better if you have poor aim because less pellets have to hit the target for you to get a kill. Basically buckshot is slightly more forgiving at short range than flechette.
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Friday, December 25th 2015, 9:58pm

For me its more like a choice of the least annoying Equipment rather than the most advantageous one.

I want some consistency, therefore buckshot would be better.

Piercing capability is damn useful too, therefore flechette.

But if I cant aim then buckshot is better for higher damage, but flechette for narrow cone and I will hit more projectiles in the small exposed part.

A choke is horrible for hipfire and when moving, because it ruins the cone too.

I have tried a lot of different attachment on my shotguns, but the Pump-Actions just hate me. Unfortunately there is still the Spas, Hawk and 870MCS left to master . The last ones are better, no doubt, but I cant stand any of them any more.
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Friday, December 25th 2015, 10:40pm

Why do people keep saying chokes ruin hipfire?
[Aristocrat's Shoes]
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Teamwork is where players function by themselves, but their effectiveness is multiplied when they work together. Not a checklist of "did we bring a healer so we can start playing?"

Zer0Cod3x

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Friday, December 25th 2015, 10:48pm

Why do people keep saying chokes ruin hipfire?

What are the choke hipfire multipliers?
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.