Welcome to symthic forums! We would love if you'd register!
You don't have to be expert in bit baking, everyone is more than welcome to join our community.

You are not logged in.

Hey! If this is your first visit on symthic.com, also check out our weapon damage charts.
Currently we have charts for Battlefield 3, Call of Duty: Black Ops 2, Medal of Honor: Warfighter and Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3

  • "ARE5R06" started this thread

Posts: 941

Date of registration
: Dec 14th 2014

Platform: PS3

Location: The Heart of Europe

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 8

  • Send private message

11

Saturday, October 31st 2015, 6:43pm

@C0llis

While you are certainly right, the second quote in the OP has a valid point. If you dont have the perfect loadout for a given situation you are at a major disadvantage; not just a slight one.

Furthermore you forgot about the revives. This is a class-specific-speciality I am thinking of how to diversify it.

btw. "dakka" <- What?

@Epicdudejo

I dont want to change BF4 class system. I was just thinking about the first two quotes in the OP and how these could be achieved. Probably the Class-less way is a too simplistic approach. C0llis has a good point to use the class system to visualize the specialization of a player.

Maybe its good enough, if everyone is able to pick up ammo from his squad member by a simple press of the interaction button.

I was just thinking, especially since both quotes gave me the impression of everything in BF is fucked up.
still playin' Motorstorm

C0llis

Up and down. Bounce all around

(3,334)

Posts: 3,100

Date of registration
: Apr 15th 2013

Platform: PC

Location: Sweden

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 15

  • Send private message

12

Saturday, October 31st 2015, 8:41pm

While you are certainly right, the second quote in the OP has a valid point. If you dont have the perfect loadout for a given situation you are at a major disadvantage; not just a slight one.

Furthermore you forgot about the revives. This is a class-specific-speciality I am thinking of how to diversify it.

btw. "dakka" <- What?

The second quote is only true in certain cases and doesn't really apply to normalcore. If you dont have an assault nearby with healthpacks/boxes you can still regen health through the auto heal, all classes have access to antivehicle gadgets (granted, non-engineer classes have very limited options and won't necessarily have them equipped, but IMO that is fine, compare that to an AA specced engineer up against an MBT; but maybe some AT grenades could be warranted, alá 40k krak grenades), players without repair tools can still pilot vehicles and regen health in them through the auto repair.


Regarding revives: IMO revives are not as mandatory for a player to be able to impact the game as access to health and ammo and all players have access to a weaker form of "reinforcements" through squad spawns.

"Dakka" is a term from Warhammer 40k. It is an Ork word that can be (roughly) translated to "shooting" or "firerate" (it's an onomateopeia of the sound of a firing gun). Dakka is good. More dakka is better.

Things people said

And reading Youtube comments still gives me Turbo Cancer.

It really is quite frustrating when Helen Keller sets up her LMG in the only doorway in/out of an area.

What kind of question is that? Since when is cheese ever a bad idea?

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "C0llis" (Oct 31st 2015, 9:03pm)


  • "ARE5R06" started this thread

Posts: 941

Date of registration
: Dec 14th 2014

Platform: PS3

Location: The Heart of Europe

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 8

  • Send private message

13

Saturday, October 31st 2015, 11:28pm

Yeah, I got it. BF4 system is fine. It's now a pseudo-class-system, which is just used because the franchise is historically build on it. Otherwise it wouldnt use classes any more, because the gameplay is meant to give everyone the same capabilites.

Somehow I feel like some changes to the current class system would be refreshing for BF.
still playin' Motorstorm

Posts: 1,421

Date of registration
: Jun 23rd 2012

Platform: PC

Location: Germany, Bavaria

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 12

  • Send private message

14

Sunday, November 1st 2015, 12:22am

Honestly I don't find engineers in public matches to be usually the greatest threat in a tank. Sure, they can easily force you to withdraw and several of them will whittle you down quick enough, but as long as they don't get a perfect side angle or a good butt shot they're not an immediate threat. A support or recon with C4 that jumps out of the bushes or buildings is an immediate threat.
Zormau - Battlelog / Battlefield 4

Memorable quotes not taken yet:


Of course, this ignores the non-constant cross-sectional first moment of area across the chest as well as non-constant material properties of the boob; it would be difficult to perform a more detailed analysis (as in, I'd have to have a shape function AND I'd need to derive a function for elastic modulus as a function of lateral breast coordinate) but whatever. It's 2am and I'm lazy.


I always believed science should be very hands on experience.

You should also answer this question I had posed in that thread: Would you be willing to pay your surgeon more if he was going to use a chainsaw for the opening incision of surgery? Clearly using a chainsaw isn't truly suited for surgery but that doesn't really matter. If he's "skilled" enough to be able to use the wrong tools of the trade, he should be rewarded for that skill right?


C0llis

Up and down. Bounce all around

(3,334)

Posts: 3,100

Date of registration
: Apr 15th 2013

Platform: PC

Location: Sweden

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 15

  • Send private message

15

Sunday, November 1st 2015, 12:22am

Yeah, I got it. BF4 system is fine. It's now a pseudo-class-system, which is just used because the franchise is historically build on it. Otherwise it wouldnt use classes any more, because the gameplay is meant to give everyone the same capabilites.

Somehow I feel like some changes to the current class system would be refreshing for BF.

Yeah, I'm not saying that the BF4 system is perfect (it isn't), there is certainly room for improvement and tweaking.


Regarding classless systems: Battlefront doesn't have any classes. I don't think it is a particularly good comparison though, judging by the beta there isn't much capability for teamplay, organization or potential for synergy between players (outside the old "you look there while I look here"): no server browser, no squad, no ingame voip, no commo rose, very few gadgets that impact anyone but yourself, vehicles are semi-randomized powerups more akin to killstreak kd-boosts than fulcrums of combined arms combat, etc.


One multiplayer game from the top of my head that doesn't have classes but still have a strong teamplay focus is CS, but that doesn't apply particularly well either.

Things people said

And reading Youtube comments still gives me Turbo Cancer.

It really is quite frustrating when Helen Keller sets up her LMG in the only doorway in/out of an area.

What kind of question is that? Since when is cheese ever a bad idea?

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

Posts: 1,421

Date of registration
: Jun 23rd 2012

Platform: PC

Location: Germany, Bavaria

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 12

  • Send private message

16

Sunday, November 1st 2015, 12:34am

I think the SWBF comparison is actually very applicable.

You don't have classes.
Everyone can fight against any threat on the battlefield.
Everyone regenerates health quickly.
Ammo is infinite.
Gadgets recharge (except for "charge" based things that you can pick up).

Assuming they put in support for large organized groups (20v20 and stuff) I see a lot of synergy potential, but that usually comes from player A bringing some tool while player B brings another tool. The players can synchronize their loadouts to do one task exceptionally well (for example all take as much ion stuff and rockets as possible against walkers etc) or they can choose to complement each other's loadout. Player A goes anti infantry (thermal detonator, jetpack, sharpshooter or whatsitsname), player B goes anti-armor (ion stuff, rockets, grenades), player C can go defensive (shield, shield generator, there will probably be something else to fit this role) and they will synergize quite well and be limitedly dependent on one another.

Add to that premeditated tactics and communication and it should work rather nicely.
Zormau - Battlelog / Battlefield 4

Memorable quotes not taken yet:


Of course, this ignores the non-constant cross-sectional first moment of area across the chest as well as non-constant material properties of the boob; it would be difficult to perform a more detailed analysis (as in, I'd have to have a shape function AND I'd need to derive a function for elastic modulus as a function of lateral breast coordinate) but whatever. It's 2am and I'm lazy.


I always believed science should be very hands on experience.

You should also answer this question I had posed in that thread: Would you be willing to pay your surgeon more if he was going to use a chainsaw for the opening incision of surgery? Clearly using a chainsaw isn't truly suited for surgery but that doesn't really matter. If he's "skilled" enough to be able to use the wrong tools of the trade, he should be rewarded for that skill right?


C0llis

Up and down. Bounce all around

(3,334)

Posts: 3,100

Date of registration
: Apr 15th 2013

Platform: PC

Location: Sweden

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 15

  • Send private message

17

Sunday, November 1st 2015, 1:31am

@Zormau

I'm a bit more inclined to agree with your side now after reading that. Players certainly are independent, and there is some potential for synergy (we haven't seen all gadgets either so there might still be some teamwork oriented ones in the game besides the shield).

Yes, they have to fix it so that it is easier to play in an organised way with more than 2 people, and give players the ability to better control where they spawn. One can not exactly accuse DICE of making organised teamplay easy, but that is maybe their intention. Overall I'm not completely sold on the game but that is likely due to it not being the game that I wanted it to be.

Things people said

And reading Youtube comments still gives me Turbo Cancer.

It really is quite frustrating when Helen Keller sets up her LMG in the only doorway in/out of an area.

What kind of question is that? Since when is cheese ever a bad idea?

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

  • "ARE5R06" started this thread

Posts: 941

Date of registration
: Dec 14th 2014

Platform: PS3

Location: The Heart of Europe

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 8

  • Send private message

18

Sunday, November 1st 2015, 2:30pm

Yeah, I'm not saying that the BF4 system is perfect (it isn't), there is certainly room for improvement and tweaking.


Go ahead, what would you change?

Edit:

I just realized, that I should move the Mines from the Anti-Vehicle Slot to the 2nd Gadget Slot. This way, the player would have the chance to select sth good Anti-Land and sth less effective Anti-Air - OR to select sth good Anti-Air and less effective Anti-Land. Then there is no missing gadget possibility any more.
still playin' Motorstorm

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "ARE5R06" (Nov 1st 2015, 3:40pm)


Watcher-45

He's watching...

(758)

Posts: 1,803

Date of registration
: May 5th 2012

Platform: PC

Location: Tucson

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 11

  • Send private message

19

Monday, November 2nd 2015, 7:18am

It's not James Bond, you can't carry a gadget for every conceivable adversary.


On the flip side, imagine being in a vehicle when EVERY FOOT SOLDIER has a weapon they can use against you. It will become an environment where getting in a tank is a death sentence, as a small squad is now more powerful than an Abrams. After a few attempts, people will abandon vehicles, so everyone will fight infantry only, and it will make the anti-vehicular weapons obsolete. Not to mention that the premise itself is ridiculous.
Do you know how much a rocket launcher weighs? The very fact you can carry a launcher, many rockets, several anti-tank mines, a PDW, and a handgun is already nothing short of super-human. Look out Master-Chief, the BF4 Engi is the real super soldier! Being able to carry an AT4, Stinger, repair torch, PDW, handgun, healing pack, shock paddles, and grenades is simply ridiculous.
As is they offer plenty of ways a typical anti-infantry kit can battle vehicles, anyway. Support and Recon both have C4 available to them, and Support has the UCAV and such. They can always adapt their load-out to fit the mission. I hardly ever run my Recon as a sniper, for example. I run him like "special forces" typically with a carbine, C4, and Bacon, and focus on being that sneaky SOB with some cooked bacon behind enemy lines fucking shit up.

I get that you just want to eliminate class restrictions on loadouts, so you can run a PDW, AT4, Med kit, and other options, but what you run into is an overpowered loadout. Say you can pick 4 things from the list of all BF weapons/gadgets. I pick: M416, SMAW, Health box, Ammo box. An accurate and very effective primary for anti-infantry, an accurate and powerful anti-vehicle solution, infinite ammo, and as long as I'm smart and don't get outflanked I am nearly invincible.
The class system is in place so that no kit IS all powerful like this. And a lot of experience has gone into making the kits what they are.
In BFBC2 the Support had the heals and assault had the ammos. Unlimited 40mms for the door kickers, and a guy holding a corner with an M249 was basically dug in tight unless you got a good solid headshot or spammed the shit out of him with explosives.

If anything, Battlefield should go back to a more diverse class system. Don't lump "assault" in with "medic", lets separate them into a dedicated medic and a dedicated assault kit, ei BF2's class system. Maybe some equipment can be shared, like choice of primary weapons and such, but gadget load-outs are more strict.
In all the essence of the game is a dynamic challenge, not a linear combat experience. The fact that your squad may be short handed (sans engineer when tanks show up, for example) makes you decide, as a team, what kit you should sacrifice to be able to face the threat. Chances are someone has died, they can come back in as an Engi and once the vehicular threat is dealt with they can switch back. Ideally, the squad dynamic becomes a team dynamic and certain squads load out for certain missions. One squad runs a pair of engis, a support, and 2 medics and sticks to surface roads for anti-vehicle duties. Another squad runs a medic, a recon, some assaults, and a support and focuses on flanking. A team of recons runs on a delay and enters flag areas AFTER they are captured and focuses on defense. This is what not only makes the game very dynamic, but also allows players to focus on their strengths and gain distinct advantages.
I get what is trying to be said about the whole "checkbox" thing, but it's never that simple. Also, you sort of can't have one without the other. Vehicles can't be powerful unless infantry is weak against them, snipers can't be effective at range unless assault troops are only effective up close. The characteristics that make you "need" an anti-vehicle guy, a repair man, a medic, a support, are the same characteristics that make them powerful, and also the same characteristics that make them weak.
Someone mentioned the fact players can regen health. Being a strictly hardcore player, that isn't a function at all. So when saying something like "if you don't have a medic, you're dead" has a bit of truth to it. But I can think of countless other games that DON'T have a regen system OR medics at all. What do you do? You nut up. You focus, and do as much as you can. You change your tactics. Maybe you fall back in hopes of finding a medic, maybe you hide and stay put and try to ambush someone. Maybe you go on the defensive instead of the offensive. I've lost missions based solely on my poor judgement or lack of skill compared to my enemy, but I've also held my own in some tight spots by thinking outside the box because I was FORCED to think outside the box and that's the kind of event that makes my heart thump in my chest and my hands shake. Neither would have necessarily happened if I could have just hid in a corner for a few seconds and come back out guns blazing at 100% health again...
Not every fight is "your fight". Sometimes you need to retreat, and that adds dynamic to the fight, and for me that adds to the whole experience and excitement.


If you want every player to be capable of every function, you need to severely reduce the variables in the game. If you had no vehicles, levels that are all indoors/close ranges to make gadgets like mortars unnecessary, and take away a very diverse advantage/disadvantage concept, you have small maps and a high focus on skill/skill fights rather than tactics/tactics battles. You get Counter-Strike.

This is Battlefield, not Counter-Strike. If you want Counter-Strike, play Counter-Strike. If you want Battlefield play Battlefield. 'Nuff said.




Edit:
I'm tired right now and I didn't read the whole thread in detail, so I realize there's a possibility I missed the point of this topic. I just got off a 12 hour work shift doing a full store inventory wherein I consumed about 5 monsters just to stay focused and now my brain is "no work so good no more". I really should have gone to bed but I'm rather insomniac right now. Probably from all the caffeine...
All bike, all the time!

Spoiler Spoiler




This post has been edited 10 times, last edit by "Watcher-45" (Nov 2nd 2015, 7:58am)


NoctyrneSAGA

PvF 2017 Champion

(9,997)

Posts: 7,187

Date of registration
: Apr 3rd 2012

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 19

  • Send private message

20

Monday, November 2nd 2015, 7:59am

Removal of classes isn't what those two quotes advocated.

It is the removal of having only one viable option when presented with each scenario and the automatic failure of not bringing that option.

It is also not the ability to bring everything at once to every engagement. That just makes things mindless. What is needed is for the option to provided and the choice to bring it is left to the player. At least in the case of something like launchers.



It is not give everyone access to the RPG-7. It is more akin to give everyone access to some type of AT weapon just like in the current set-up. The option is there, but you have to deliberately spec into it. Even then, the Assault, Support, or Recon kits will never be as effective as the Engineer at Anti-Tank combat. However, they can at least put up some resistance and if played well enough, would be able to do more than just lay down on a silver platter. Even better is that wannabe Anti-Tank Assaults with the 40mm can reduce Engi rocket usage. They can assist the dedicated AT Kit in their role.

The same thing happens with Assault's Medkits and health regen. Or Recon Motion Sensors and 3D spotting (or autodetector).

The Laser Designation bonus is a good example of synergy. The Launchers are functional by themselves. They get even stronger if you have someone else assisting you.



The glaring problem so far is that Support is the only way to refill the ammunition inside your weapons. SWBF solved this by putting everything on cooldowns. BF4 solved this for vehicles by providing ammo regen and extending this to infantry would be great. Your long term ammunition is effectively unlimited, but without a Support player, you would have to carefully manage your ammo expenditure so as not to get caught empty. However, the lack of an ammo box isn't a problem because you'll eventually regenerate ammunition by yourself. It won't be as much or as fast as Support could do, but it is serviceable.

Other people suggested Ammo Boxes scattered throughout the map and I am mostly against this. Metal Gear Online 3 does this right now and the only reason why it works is because these boxes are so abundant, it is hard to walk 2 steps without seeing one and when someone dies, they create another box where they died (this is based off of gameplay videos so I cannot guarantee the accuracy of this since MGO doesn't arrive on PC until January).
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.