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  • "Epicdudejo" started this thread

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21

Wednesday, September 2nd 2015, 5:58am

Quoted

@Pastafarianism

Can you go into more detail about the barrels?

I just think BF4 has an excellent system. Only issue is that HBar would reduce recoil, comp and MB roles are switched, and suppressor isn't a guaranteed silencer.

Realism isn't perfect, but balance basically is
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The main reason someone would use a heavy barrel is for consistency between shots. It's more resistant to vibrations and overheating. The weight difference is barely over 10% so if one wanted to reduce recoil, a Muzzle Brake would be much more effective. The best ones can cut felt recoil in half.

Speaking of the Muzzle Brake, if it were fully realistic, it would reduce both horizontal and vertical recoil since it reduces the amount of energy felt by the shooter. However, limiting it to vertical recoil would allow the Flash Hider to be that multi-purpose recoil device.

The Flash Hider looks a lot like the M16's "bird cage" muzzle, which redirects the gasses all around the barrel. It does work as a brake/compensator combo, even if it's not as effective as a true brake.

The Compensator is pretty true to life if I look at the slanted muzzle brake of an AK-series rifle. It doesn't reduce the felt recoil but it redirects it so that recoil goes straight up. Which is pretty much what it does in-game.

NoctyrneSAGA

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22

Wednesday, September 2nd 2015, 6:03am

Was this built around the idea that naked weaponry should not be a viable option?
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With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


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Zer0Cod3x

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23

Wednesday, September 2nd 2015, 9:56am

I don't see why the grips should be changed, IMO they're fine as they are. Same with the HB and comp, they're well balanced.

I feel the brick's multipliers just need to be increased slightly. And to make the flash hider more viable, IDK, maybe give it increased RDEC? This is a stat you can't modify with any attachments, so how about making the scale go from 0.1 to 0.2 and 1 to 2? And keep the SDEC penalty. This is just an idea.

BF4: ACE 23 vs PP-2000 vs L86A1 vs RPK-74M vs QBB-95-1 | BF4 Multi-Weapon Comparison | Symthic, my LMG is 0.09° less accurate while moving than the assault rifle and 0.2° less accurate than the PDW. I was talking about mag fed LMGs if I recall correctly. True, the belt feds aren't good with it, but that's like gluing big antlers on a female deer and expecting to become a stag.

Um, you do know there's a formula for moving spread right?

This means, that if you have a medium range optic on your QBB/L86, with HB + ergo, while strafing or moving backwards, it will be less accurate by 0.045 degrees compared to an AR with the same setup, and actually more accurate than a PDW by 0.06 degrees. If using a 1x optic, you'll be 0.126 degrees less accurate compared to the AR, and 0.073 degrees less accurate compared to the PDW.
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


C0llis

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24

Wednesday, September 2nd 2015, 11:21am

Quoted

Why fix that which is not broken?

I am simply giving input. His suggestion is not very good IMO
I was not specifically targeting your post, it was more about the premise of this thread in general.

On topic: I don't see the point in an attachment overhaul, attachments are fine ATM (sure, there is room for some small tweaks, like removing/reducing the frequency of tracers for the flash hider, but a complete overhaul is not needed).

Things people said

And reading Youtube comments still gives me Turbo Cancer.

It really is quite frustrating when Helen Keller sets up her LMG in the only doorway in/out of an area.

What kind of question is that? Since when is cheese ever a bad idea?

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

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25

Wednesday, September 2nd 2015, 6:25pm


BF4: ACE 23 vs PP-2000 vs L86A1 vs RPK-74M vs QBB-95-1 | BF4 Multi-Weapon Comparison | Symthic, my LMG is 0.09° less accurate while moving than the assault rifle and 0.2° less accurate than the PDW. I was talking about mag fed LMGs if I recall correctly. True, the belt feds aren't good with it, but that's like gluing big antlers on a female deer and expecting to become a stag.

Um, you do know there's a formula for moving spread right?

This means, that if you have a medium range optic on your QBB/L86, with HB + ergo, while strafing or moving backwards, it will be less accurate by 0.045 degrees compared to an AR with the same setup, and actually more accurate than a PDW by 0.06 degrees. If using a 1x optic, you'll be 0.126 degrees less accurate compared to the AR, and 0.073 degrees less accurate compared to the PDW.

I was under the impression that the tool gave the correct total values for sidestepping once you applied a moving ads modifying attachment, but you're right, the values don't match up.

I can't fathom what the multi comparison tool does, then, as the ACE-23 + ergo should either show "0.4" or "0.35" for its total forward or sideways ads spread or 0.5 moving spread penalty, as the ergo grip cuts that in half and the base is 1.
@Miffyli

It still doesn't invalidate my point, though, as moving ADS spread with hb+ergo magfed LMGs (and slow bullpups) is still better than base spread with PDWs.
Zormau - Battlelog / Battlefield 4

Memorable quotes not taken yet:


Of course, this ignores the non-constant cross-sectional first moment of area across the chest as well as non-constant material properties of the boob; it would be difficult to perform a more detailed analysis (as in, I'd have to have a shape function AND I'd need to derive a function for elastic modulus as a function of lateral breast coordinate) but whatever. It's 2am and I'm lazy.


I always believed science should be very hands on experience.

You should also answer this question I had posed in that thread: Would you be willing to pay your surgeon more if he was going to use a chainsaw for the opening incision of surgery? Clearly using a chainsaw isn't truly suited for surgery but that doesn't really matter. If he's "skilled" enough to be able to use the wrong tools of the trade, he should be rewarded for that skill right?


CobaltRose

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26

Wednesday, September 2nd 2015, 6:42pm

nyet. Other than maybe toning down the SDEC penalty so that it isn't absolutely absurd on anything except standard automatic weapons with at most a fire rate of 700rpm, the attachments are fine as-is.
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27

Wednesday, September 2nd 2015, 6:46pm

I corrected the values a while ago, at least to my knowledge. Sidestepping spread etc is tricky because afaik it depends on how much you go forward and how much you to the side etcetc.
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

  • "Epicdudejo" started this thread

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28

Wednesday, September 2nd 2015, 8:55pm

nyet. Other than maybe toning down the SDEC penalty so that it isn't absolutely absurd on anything except standard automatic weapons with at most a fire rate of 700rpm, the attachments are fine as-is.


As far as I know, the slowest recovery I could find was the M240B. If it has a grip, it needs 0.4 seconds to fully recover from its max spread. The M249 and MG4, for comparison, require 0.2 seconds.

However, I'm not sure if this qualifies as absurd.

And, as I've said in another post, just changing the Angled Grip into another effect would allow the Muzzle Brake to take over as the go-to attachment to counter vertical recoil (like it should have been to begin with). It would also create slack for a combination attachment (Which could be the Flash Hider) that reduces both horizontal and vertical recoil at once. Obviously, the effects in either axis wouldn't be as powerful as the specialized parts but hey, more options! More interesting game!

As for the Angled Grip, I still think recoil recovery could be a good alternate role. If existing recovery values are too high, we just need to lower them enough for the part to matter. If it worked for Spread Decrease, why not Recoil Decrease?

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29

Wednesday, September 2nd 2015, 9:48pm

HB + Stubby = Naked but better
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.