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VincentNZ

Holy War? No Thanks.

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Monday, July 13th 2015, 12:15pm

Objective Defense and Sniping

If I recall correctly you said something like the DBV beating (statistically) the AEK at around 30m, right? Out of my head I would say that this comes pretty close to an average engagement/kill distance.

Concerning long range I would say that there is a problem that you can not attack an objective or defend it at long range without losing score. Playing the objective and, more importantly, scoring the objective, always boils down to the engagement distances. The map design has a lot of opportunities for long range combat, it is just not rewarding (not saying that anything should be changed here like ridiculously enlarging capture radius etc).

So as the flag areas and the surrounding vicinity are generally the only places with cover on many maps, independently of the size of the map most kils and fights will happen along these. The game forces you to the flag, which is right of course. Even when playing DMRs, and trying to PTO and trying to get the most out of my weapon class, I almost always ended up within these 30m.

That being said one would have to distinguish between engagement range and kill range. Since I often engage at 50m or more with little possibility of killing a guy with one mag or before he can turn to cover. However you can not measure that, of course, statistically.

And of course the niches are somewhat blurred, as we have so many weapons built for or suitable for CQB, whether intended or not. Bullpups, PDWs, Carbines, Shotguns, some LMGs even. On the whole I do not see much of an issue with anything here, I would never complain about a shotgun, I just think the semi-autos could use a pellet or two less.
Edit: Did DICE LA state anything, that they will revisit shotguns again?

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "VincentNZ" (Jul 13th 2015, 12:38pm)


Hau_ruck

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Monday, July 13th 2015, 2:37pm

If I recall correctly you said something like the DBV beating (statistically) the AEK at around 30m, right? Out of my head I would say that this comes pretty close to an average engagement/kill distance.

Concerning long range I would say that there is a problem that you can not attack an objective or defend it at long range without losing score. Playing the objective and, more importantly, scoring the objective, always boils down to the engagement distances. The map design has a lot of opportunities for long range combat, it is just not rewarding (not saying that anything should be changed here like ridiculously enlarging capture radius etc).

So as the flag areas and the surrounding vicinity are generally the only places with cover on many maps, independently of the size of the map most kils and fights will happen along these. The game forces you to the flag, which is right of course. Even when playing DMRs, and trying to PTO and trying to get the most out of my weapon class, I almost always ended up within these 30m.

That being said one would have to distinguish between engagement range and kill range. Since I often engage at 50m or more with little possibility of killing a guy with one mag or before he can turn to cover. However you can not measure that, of course, statistically.

And of course the niches are somewhat blurred, as we have so many weapons built for or suitable for CQB, whether intended or not. Bullpups, PDWs, Carbines, Shotguns, some LMGs even. On the whole I do not see much of an issue with anything here, I would never complain about a shotgun, I just think the semi-autos could use a pellet or two less.
Edit: Did DICE LA state anything, that they will revisit shotguns again?



Why don't you think that enlarging capture areas might help? personally this is one of my biggest beefs with battlefield's objective system. they all involve getting into close range which leaves weapons like dmrs at a disadvantage. this wouldn't be so bad if the respawn timer wasn't so ridiculously small as usually what happens is:

1. move towards objective

2. see and kill aek guy at mid-long range with QBB while he sprays away ineffectually

3. move in to cap flag.

4. aek guys is now at a massive advantage thanks to kill cam, fast respawns and the small capture area pretty much telling him exactly where i am. he essentially gets to appear right near me at his preferred range and there isn't a damn thing i can do about it.

5. hopefully smoke + XM25 dart bails me out.

There has to be some way to solve this. maybe forbid respawning on a flag that is being captured or speed up capture times. it's a tricky problem to solve but the current system just makes for very frustrating gameplay especially when combined with comms allowing dead players to tell their buddies right where you are using killcam. does anyone know why killcam is even in these games?

Sheepnub

I pity the wool

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Monday, July 13th 2015, 6:01pm

If I recall correctly you said something like the DBV beating (statistically) the AEK at around 30m, right? Out of my head I would say that this comes pretty close to an average engagement/kill distance.

Concerning long range I would say that there is a problem that you can not attack an objective or defend it at long range without losing score. Playing the objective and, more importantly, scoring the objective, always boils down to the engagement distances. The map design has a lot of opportunities for long range combat, it is just not rewarding (not saying that anything should be changed here like ridiculously enlarging capture radius etc).

So as the flag areas and the surrounding vicinity are generally the only places with cover on many maps, independently of the size of the map most kils and fights will happen along these. The game forces you to the flag, which is right of course. Even when playing DMRs, and trying to PTO and trying to get the most out of my weapon class, I almost always ended up within these 30m.

That being said one would have to distinguish between engagement range and kill range. Since I often engage at 50m or more with little possibility of killing a guy with one mag or before he can turn to cover. However you can not measure that, of course, statistically.

And of course the niches are somewhat blurred, as we have so many weapons built for or suitable for CQB, whether intended or not. Bullpups, PDWs, Carbines, Shotguns, some LMGs even. On the whole I do not see much of an issue with anything here, I would never complain about a shotgun, I just think the semi-autos could use a pellet or two less.
Edit: Did DICE LA state anything, that they will revisit shotguns again?



Why don't you think that enlarging capture areas might help? personally this is one of my biggest beefs with battlefield's objective system. they all involve getting into close range which leaves weapons like dmrs at a disadvantage. this wouldn't be so bad if the respawn timer wasn't so ridiculously small as usually what happens is:

1. move towards objective

2. see and kill aek guy at mid-long range with QBB while he sprays away ineffectually

3. move in to cap flag.

4. aek guys is now at a massive advantage thanks to kill cam, fast respawns and the small capture area pretty much telling him exactly where i am. he essentially gets to appear right near me at his preferred range and there isn't a damn thing i can do about it.

5. hopefully smoke + XM25 dart bails me out.

There has to be some way to solve this. maybe forbid respawning on a flag that is being captured or speed up capture times. it's a tricky problem to solve but the current system just makes for very frustrating gameplay especially when combined with comms allowing dead players to tell their buddies right where you are using killcam. does anyone know why killcam is even in these games?

1) That would turn it more into a "how many guys have we got here?!?!" than a "woohoo we hold this little hotspot. Mission accomplished!". It would turn certain moments stagnant.
2) If you favor longrange weapons. Be sure to either go with backup and take the blatantly superior medium+ ground, or choose a smart spot from which you can defend yourself.
3) Yes the killcam exists. But does that mean you really have to stay in the exact same position for about 10-20 seconds after he dies? You, too, can move around. By the time he should only know ONE out of two possible things regarding your position: You are everywhere BUT at the spot you just were, or you are in a spot so easily defended that him attacking again could only result in him dying.
4) DMR's are never useless. You don't have to be in the flag's radius in order to prevent enemies from capping it. You can cut off the "supply routes" by forming a front, you can ambush the supply routes, engage them from a distance while they're capping (requires a bit of positioning, and possibly destroying cover), etcetcetcetcetcetc..... If you say "DMR's are useless with capping/defending flags", you are honestly missing out on a lot of tactical/strategical aspects. (Note: I don't mean this in a flame-like form)
5) Positioning. Positioning. Positioning. Positioning. Positioning. Positioning. This "aek guy" you keep talking about can be outsmarted, outplayed, and outranged (is that a word? It is now). Find good cover (that hides 50%+ of your body), and a 20m engagement is a 40m engagement for his inaccurate gun (minus the bullet dmg aspect). Find overwatch spots.

I consider myself a mainly medium-to-longrange player. I'm almost always using the more accurate weapons, that will often lack in close range (Especially since the high RoF weapons got rebalanced). And I am proud to say that I'm not a blatant liability to my team when it's about capping/defending objectives. I simply don't rush in with a longrange-weapon thinking I can take on an aek at point blank.

There is sooooo SOOOOOOOOOO much more to this game than simply "Run into flag radius. Kill what is there. Proceed" ;(
"I put aside a few sceptics, the types of decency in the history of philosophy: the rest haven't the slightest conception of intellectual integrity."
Friedrich Nietzsche


Best of epic quotes :D

Spoiler Spoiler

Just realized it's 4/20 tomorrow


Thanks for the heads up!
*Logs out of Symthic in preparation*

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

>littlebird passanger, semi-auto frag rounds
>gunship OP

Meanwhile at DICE-headquarters during BF4's release:

I'm pretty sure there's a massive post-it on every desk "DON'T FUCKING TOUCH ANYTHING THAT IS ACTUALLY DOING WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE DOING"

UCAV:
"Hey guys remember how stupid prenerf mav was?"

"Lets add c4 to it."

The World Champion went to China once.

They called me a Gweilo.

So I kicked a big fucking hole in their wall and let all the Mongolians in.

just thought I'd share.


The thought of Assaults running out of ACE 23 rounds mid firefight, Engineers facing the rear of an unaware MBT with no rockets left, Recons unable to...Whatever the fuck they do. These are the things that keep me up at night ;(


About hunturk:
I don't know what's funnier, the video itself of the fact that an unlisted video has more views than most of your normal videos :P

...


You just live to hit people upside the noggin with a Math Bomb, don't you?

[context] Maybe it's the UK's overly aggressive porn filter at work. After all, it does have the word "monkey" in it and monkeys have been known to have sex so...


Previously, at DICE HQ:
"Ok guys, the password is "epic dream worlds"; everyone take a letter and do your best to turn it into into something random that we can put into a picture!"


I assume a functional game (BF4) also.

Aww!
*pinches cheeks*
So cute!


But but but

He's a Youtuber ;(

There's no way he doesn't know what he's talking about


Hau_ruck

Tow me daddy!

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4

Monday, July 13th 2015, 6:32pm

If I recall correctly you said something like the DBV beating (statistically) the AEK at around 30m, right? Out of my head I would say that this comes pretty close to an average engagement/kill distance.

Concerning long range I would say that there is a problem that you can not attack an objective or defend it at long range without losing score. Playing the objective and, more importantly, scoring the objective, always boils down to the engagement distances. The map design has a lot of opportunities for long range combat, it is just not rewarding (not saying that anything should be changed here like ridiculously enlarging capture radius etc).

So as the flag areas and the surrounding vicinity are generally the only places with cover on many maps, independently of the size of the map most kils and fights will happen along these. The game forces you to the flag, which is right of course. Even when playing DMRs, and trying to PTO and trying to get the most out of my weapon class, I almost always ended up within these 30m.

That being said one would have to distinguish between engagement range and kill range. Since I often engage at 50m or more with little possibility of killing a guy with one mag or before he can turn to cover. However you can not measure that, of course, statistically.

And of course the niches are somewhat blurred, as we have so many weapons built for or suitable for CQB, whether intended or not. Bullpups, PDWs, Carbines, Shotguns, some LMGs even. On the whole I do not see much of an issue with anything here, I would never complain about a shotgun, I just think the semi-autos could use a pellet or two less.
Edit: Did DICE LA state anything, that they will revisit shotguns again?



Why don't you think that enlarging capture areas might help? personally this is one of my biggest beefs with battlefield's objective system. they all involve getting into close range which leaves weapons like dmrs at a disadvantage. this wouldn't be so bad if the respawn timer wasn't so ridiculously small as usually what happens is:

1. move towards objective

2. see and kill aek guy at mid-long range with QBB while he sprays away ineffectually

3. move in to cap flag.

4. aek guys is now at a massive advantage thanks to kill cam, fast respawns and the small capture area pretty much telling him exactly where i am. he essentially gets to appear right near me at his preferred range and there isn't a damn thing i can do about it.

5. hopefully smoke + XM25 dart bails me out.

There has to be some way to solve this. maybe forbid respawning on a flag that is being captured or speed up capture times. it's a tricky problem to solve but the current system just makes for very frustrating gameplay especially when combined with comms allowing dead players to tell their buddies right where you are using killcam. does anyone know why killcam is even in these games?

1) That would turn it more into a "how many guys have we got here?!?!" than a "woohoo we hold this little hotspot. Mission accomplished!". It would turn certain moments stagnant.
2) If you favor longrange weapons. Be sure to either go with backup and take the blatantly superior medium+ ground, or choose a smart spot from which you can defend yourself.
3) Yes the killcam exists. But does that mean you really have to stay in the exact same position for about 10-20 seconds after he dies? You, too, can move around. By the time he should only know ONE out of two possible things regarding your position: You are everywhere BUT at the spot you just were, or you are in a spot so easily defended that him attacking again could only result in him dying.
4) DMR's are never useless. You don't have to be in the flag's radius in order to prevent enemies from capping it. You can cut off the "supply routes" by forming a front, you can ambush the supply routes, engage them from a distance while they're capping (requires a bit of positioning, and possibly destroying cover), etcetcetcetcetcetc..... If you say "DMR's are useless with capping/defending flags", you are honestly missing out on a lot of tactical/strategical aspects. (Note: I don't mean this in a flame-like form)
5) Positioning. Positioning. Positioning. Positioning. Positioning. Positioning. This "aek guy" you keep talking about can be outsmarted, outplayed, and outranged (is that a word? It is now). Find good cover (that hides 50%+ of your body), and a 20m engagement is a 40m engagement for his inaccurate gun (minus the bullet dmg aspect). Find overwatch spots.

I consider myself a mainly medium-to-longrange player. I'm almost always using the more accurate weapons, that will often lack in close range (Especially since the high RoF weapons got rebalanced). And I am proud to say that I'm not a blatant liability to my team when it's about capping/defending objectives. I simply don't rush in with a longrange-weapon thinking I can take on an aek at point blank.

There is sooooo SOOOOOOOOOO much more to this game than simply "Run into flag radius. Kill what is there. Proceed" ;(



thanks for the comprehensive post :)

obviously there are ways to battle killcam and some flags have some nice ambush spots but it still feels stupid that i will usually have to best the other player at least 3 times in the process of capping the flag and if he gets me even once then it was all for naught. I too prefer mid-long range weapons but i find some flag areas are just too small and vacant to allow you to do anything but pray that the 2 aek guys i just shot don't magically appear right next to me. more often than not you can't cover every entrance to a flag so you just have to get lucky that he picks the one you're looking at and screws up at a range where he has all the advantages. my job is a lot harder than his.

i agree that with the real clusterf#$% flags it's usually best to just position yourself around them and try to support the team with kills rather than just run in there and die. there are normally enough players doing that already. i usually prefer to do this with an MRAP, Jeep MG or Bipod lmg rather than a DMR though.

I just find it frustrating that the killcam makes attacking flags so difficult

Sheepnub

I pity the wool

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Monday, July 13th 2015, 7:02pm

I just find it frustrating that the killcam makes attacking flags so difficult

Eh I can't say I disagree, to be brutally honest. But it is a lot better than the alternative: Getting killed repeatedly by some guy from the most random spot ever. And this would only be amplified by the amount of "vertical gameplay" (i.e. find a roof. camp said roof. shoot down from said roof onto the ground until the round ends).

It's the best of two evils IMO. But, just like with anything, whether you agree on it or not.....it's still there :( If you can't change it, adapting to it is all you've got left :c
"I put aside a few sceptics, the types of decency in the history of philosophy: the rest haven't the slightest conception of intellectual integrity."
Friedrich Nietzsche


Best of epic quotes :D

Spoiler Spoiler

Just realized it's 4/20 tomorrow


Thanks for the heads up!
*Logs out of Symthic in preparation*

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

>littlebird passanger, semi-auto frag rounds
>gunship OP

Meanwhile at DICE-headquarters during BF4's release:

I'm pretty sure there's a massive post-it on every desk "DON'T FUCKING TOUCH ANYTHING THAT IS ACTUALLY DOING WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE DOING"

UCAV:
"Hey guys remember how stupid prenerf mav was?"

"Lets add c4 to it."

The World Champion went to China once.

They called me a Gweilo.

So I kicked a big fucking hole in their wall and let all the Mongolians in.

just thought I'd share.


The thought of Assaults running out of ACE 23 rounds mid firefight, Engineers facing the rear of an unaware MBT with no rockets left, Recons unable to...Whatever the fuck they do. These are the things that keep me up at night ;(


About hunturk:
I don't know what's funnier, the video itself of the fact that an unlisted video has more views than most of your normal videos :P

...


You just live to hit people upside the noggin with a Math Bomb, don't you?

[context] Maybe it's the UK's overly aggressive porn filter at work. After all, it does have the word "monkey" in it and monkeys have been known to have sex so...


Previously, at DICE HQ:
"Ok guys, the password is "epic dream worlds"; everyone take a letter and do your best to turn it into into something random that we can put into a picture!"


I assume a functional game (BF4) also.

Aww!
*pinches cheeks*
So cute!


But but but

He's a Youtuber ;(

There's no way he doesn't know what he's talking about


VincentNZ

Holy War? No Thanks.

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Monday, July 13th 2015, 7:41pm

I agree with sheepnub that it works the best the way it is. And while I agree that the killcam is a bit too revealing, I think you can well outsmart that guy. That being said, an increased range of capture would just lead to endless searches for a guy prone behind some crates that nobody ever digs through. I do not think that there is a problem there, and also none with the average engagement distance, firstly stuff like seeing someone and deciding not to engage can not be counted, as well as engagements that end with noone being killed, that are likely beyond the average. All in all balance is great, I just think the semis could use some fine-tuning again.

There is one thing with shotguns that was not touched though and that is cover. When you are up against a guy with a shotgun and you are in any sort of cover you are at an advantage, which comes quite handy. Since the buckshot and flechette spread is a cone any parts in cover can not be hit. Additionally the flechette piercing does not seem to work at all times agains thin cover, too. Or piercing several enemies I have had issues with that as well. Does this stuff work at all?

ToTheSun!

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Monday, July 13th 2015, 8:12pm

It's the best of two evils IMO.

It really is not. If that were the case, a single dude could protect a flag from almost an entire team in "competitive". If a dude hid well enough to make pinpointing his exact location super hard, either he deserves to have the advantage or his victims need to find ways to solve the problem. Call it The Moriz Strategy v1.1.

It's stupid that i have to time deathcams in my head while i go in a completely different direction so as to deceive players that will spawn again to come kill me, only to turn around and find a new spot where i will have the higher ground with which to offer them the Eternal Rest after they have fallen for my clever ruse.

Hau_ruck

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Monday, July 13th 2015, 8:31pm

It's the best of two evils IMO.

It really is not. If that were the case, a single dude could protect a flag from almost an entire team in "competitive". If a dude hid well enough to make pinpointing his exact location super hard, either he deserves to have the advantage or his victims need to find ways to solve the problem. Call it The Moriz Strategy v1.1.

It's stupid that i have to time deathcams in my head while i go in a completely different direction so as to deceive players that will spawn again to come kill me, only to turn around and find a new spot where i will have the higher ground with which to offer them the Eternal Rest after they have fallen for my clever ruse.


Couldn't agree more. yes you can do the fake-out thing.... it's just really stupid that you have to. the point about the pain-in-the-ass verticality is definitely valid though. some games of dawnbreaker and shanghai become downright unplayable.

ToTheSun!

Be Creative.

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Monday, July 13th 2015, 8:42pm

the point about the pain-in-the-ass verticality is definitely valid though. some games of dawnbreaker and shanghai become downright unplayable.

If your team is the better one, it won't be a problem. Most of the time, roof campers can be dealt with easily. Problem is inertia protects them a lot. People are difficultly swayed into going out of their way and losing invaluable flag attacking time to track and go after said roof campers. Best one can hope for is competent aircraft to pick them out or have a squad get rid of them in case they're a really persistent nuisance.

In either case, the deathcam won't change things muchly.

Hau_ruck

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Thursday, July 16th 2015, 5:34am

They could always just do the thing HC mode in BC2 did where when you die the camera faces the direction you got shot from, then blacks out. that way you at least see where you got hit from but not much else so you can't do any stupid voice chat crap. the best of both worlds :)