Welcome to symthic forums! We would love if you'd register!
You don't have to be expert in bit baking, everyone is more than welcome to join our community.

You are not logged in.

Hey! If this is your first visit on symthic.com, also check out our weapon damage charts.
Currently we have charts for Battlefield 3, Call of Duty: Black Ops 2, Medal of Honor: Warfighter and Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3

Posts: 184

Date of registration
: Nov 25th 2014

Platform: PS3

Location: The objective

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 5

  • Send private message

21

Tuesday, June 2nd 2015, 2:43pm

There is a HUGE difference between calling out class, weapon, and general location / direction / distance and having a real-time display of exact location for several seconds. The former requires some thought and is a "skill" that the player can improve upon (judging where the enemy is and where he/she may try to escape to), while the latter is the game doing the work for you.

Killcam is bullshit, plain and simple.
My response to K/D bragging: "It's kinda hard to maintain a high K/D without ammo..." | Top 1% Resupplies PS3 - Proud to be a team player


  • "Exyia" started this thread

Posts: 341

Date of registration
: Jun 29th 2013

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 5

  • Send private message

22

Tuesday, June 2nd 2015, 6:30pm

There is a HUGE difference between calling out class, weapon, and general location / direction / distance and having a real-time display of exact location for several seconds. The former requires some thought and is a "skill" that the player can improve upon (judging where the enemy is and where he/she may try to escape to), while the latter is the game doing the work for you.

Killcam is bullshit, plain and simple.


agree with this so much. couldn't have put it better

so many votes for yes, but hardly anyone speaking up

Posts: 171

Date of registration
: Dec 19th 2013

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 3

  • Send private message

23

Tuesday, June 2nd 2015, 7:16pm

The Supressor play style is only viable on infantry focused maps like zavod and pearl market. You have enough cover to move in and out of places to avoid being spotted, and plenty of flanking routes as well as escape. You won't be staying in one place long enough for motion sensors to be of use.

So in short you sneak in, kill and move on. On the aforementioned maps this is pretty much how it's done. If spotted you have plenty of cover to keep moving and keeping yourself concealed and tracers won't be annoying if you are constantly moving around to avoid detection. Kill cam will be useless because you are relocating all the time.

Problem is people try to use the Supressor in different ways that it isn't suited for. If you are PTFOing then the Supressor won't help because you will be in the centre of attention. Like the C cap on hainan resort is constantly under siege and anyone there supressed or not will be killed because you will be expected by the other team to be around.

Posts: 206

Date of registration
: Apr 5th 2012

Platform: PS4

Location: Here

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 8

  • Send private message

24

Wednesday, June 3rd 2015, 12:01am

I originally voted no but after playing more with suppressors after the patch I changed my vote to yes. Before the TracerBeams were added the suppressor was a fairly balanced tradeoff of stealth for muzzle velocity. The exception may have been suppressed LMGs with infinite ammo camping hard but even those players were ruined by the killcam. Now, even through you stay off the minimap your visual signature while firing is so large you might as well choose another attachment. Flank a squad now and your TracerBeam blaster rifle is sure to be noticed before the first dude is dead. Seriously, why are my bullet tracers larger than my barrel?

Posts: 287

Date of registration
: Jan 29th 2012

Platform: 360

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 5

  • Send private message

25

Wednesday, June 3rd 2015, 12:35am

stealth

kill


Choose one.


I don't understand why you're posing it as if we can't have one or the other. By choosing stealth, my very ability to kill (my suppressed weapon) is hampered by an inferior velocity. And in turn, the play style (positioning, prioritizing targets, and choosing when to engage) is adapted for the Stealth Play Style. So, if I maintain my stealth I should be able to secure my kill as a reward, and not seen as an expense or balancing engagements. People who aren't suppressed and don't intend to play a stealthy play style already have the advantage in their weapons, in numbers, and by indicators which breach the stealth play style criteria.

I voted yes. FH and Suppressor need tracers removed, and tracers need to be reigned in a little. Could they be proc'd between every 3-5 shots?
G3A3 or bust

Gunners and passengers are just for show.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "SmoothHavok" (Jun 3rd 2015, 4:56am) with the following reason: spelling


NoctyrneSAGA

PvF 2017 Champion

(10,320)

Posts: 7,285

Date of registration
: Apr 3rd 2012

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 19

  • Send private message

26

Wednesday, June 3rd 2015, 1:08am

stealth

kill


Choose one.


I don't understand why you're posing it as if we can't have on or the other. By choosing stealth, my very ability to kill (my suppressed weapon) is hampered by an inferior velocity. And in turn, the play style (positioning, prioritizing targets, and choosing when to engage) is adapted for the Stealth Play Style. So, if I maintain my stealth I should be able to secure my kill as a reward, and not seen as an expense or balancing engagements. People who aren't suppressed and don't intend to play a stealthy play style already have the advantage in their weapons, in numbers, and by indicators which breach the stealth play style criteria.

I voted yes. FH and Suppressor need tracers removed, and tracers need to be reigned in a little. Could they be proc'd between every 3-5 shots?


Here we have to separate "stealth" from "quiet kills." Why do I say this?

The point of stealth is to not be seen. You cannot make your presence known. This can be seen in all sorts of stealth games because they always say "Don't leave a trace." It's easy to kill in stealth games because they're not going to radio in that they've been killed. However, that's already betraying the point of stealth. You're not supposed to be seen or heard or to leave evidence of your presence behind.

Going into Battlefield, killing and stealth cannot possibly mix together. By killing someone, you alert them to your presence. They can type in the chat or communicate to their squad that someone is hiding. Even though they are dead, they know you are around. You are no longer stealthy, you are compromised. In fact, if you went around with the expectation of killing someone, that isn't stealth at all. That is more equated to "hunting."

True stealth would be me hiding in a dark corner of Infiltration of Shanghai Alpha Flag during the CTE Night maps 32v32 and never firing a single shot. For 10min straight I simply lay still and let the enemy run past me scratching their heads how someone was still capping the flag. Had I killed any of them, I would not have been able to stay there so long.

That is why stealth and killing in BF4 are mutually exclusive.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

"Skill" may indeed be the most magical of words. Chant it well enough and any desire can be yours.

Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

Posts: 287

Date of registration
: Jan 29th 2012

Platform: 360

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 5

  • Send private message

27

Wednesday, June 3rd 2015, 7:50am

I think Exyia and AmmuNOPE talked about that to a point, especially in criticizing the kill cam. I was sort of confused about why they had it in BF3. In a game where positioning is key, a kill cam would seem like the least likely game featured to be implemented. But it is. If anything, it should be nerfed to last a shorter amount of time, or be rid of entirely.

I think the chatbox point falls flat for a number of reasons: 1) I highly doubt the chatbox is ever filled with people constantly telegraphing their deaths, ESPECIALLY on a 64m server 2) perhaps a competitive server, but at that point every effort is put towards relaying as much info as possible, and so most efforts at remaining stealth fail anyways 3) you'll already be on the move, any typed information regarding my position is outdated unless I decide to not move, which is stupid to do because the kill cam exists. And we're talking about a Stealth Playstyle, as in the criteria for stealth oriented play style within the context of Battlefield 4. That's nice that Snake and Sam Fisher are given different liberties, but those are different games.

Hunting is an appropriate term, because stealth is one of the tools employed by the hunter to secure their kill. In the ideal situation, a stealth player in BF4 should be able to kill their intended target, and ideally, the intended target would also be the only person capable of relaying my position. But BF4 isn't an ideal game with ideal situations, and the perpetuation of attachments like the suppressor or perk trees advertised for stealth play styles do not do enough to cater to such possibilities.

In a more realistic setting in BF4, if I wanted to play stealthy, I would be suppressed to avoid the minimap, constantly using cover to avoid being spotted/seen, and always moving to avoid having my position being pin-pointed once a kill has been secured. Currently, as Exyia pointed out, this play style punishes the player more than it lets them explore and take advantage of a possible style of play.
G3A3 or bust

Gunners and passengers are just for show.

NoctyrneSAGA

PvF 2017 Champion

(10,320)

Posts: 7,285

Date of registration
: Apr 3rd 2012

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 19

  • Send private message

28

Wednesday, June 3rd 2015, 8:41am

That is why I make the distinction between "stealth" and "hunting."

Stealth, when played correctly, is a huge benefit to your team because it provides a forward spawn point that is much more easily concealed than a Spawn Beacon. If you are good at stealth, you will never be noticed at all because they don't know you are there. That is stealth.

Hunting is only going to help you rack in more kills before the enemy notices you. But they will eventually notice you. And there goes your stealth. It is simply a temporary combat advantage.

The key to stealth isn't staying silent or out of sight. It is to make the enemy believe you are not there at all. And this is perfectly feasible within something like Battlefield 4.

The chatbox is one of the biggest problems when it comes to stealth. We should not consider idiots during discussions about viability since, given a stupid enough player, anything ends up becoming viable against them. We must therefore consider competent players. Players that will actually look at the chatbox or listen to VOIP and notice victims communicating, "There is a guy with a suppressor sneaking around. Look out." And so the hunt begins. But you didn't lose your stealth when your presence was relayed. You lost it the moment you opened fire. It was at that moment that the enemy team was made aware of your presence. They might not know your exact location since you might be moving around, but they know you are there. This is why even with killcam disabled, going for a kill ruins stealth. It is knowledge of your presence, not your immediate location, that is the problem. Smart players will be able to find you and kill you. Not to mention that they can very well deploy a MAV if they deem you a large enough threat.

Stealth is entirely viable and rather hard to punish for the reason that the enemy is completely unaware that they have a problem on their hands. They don't know they should be using a MAV on you if they're unaware of your presence at all. Of course, if there is a MAV in there, then it is highly advised to dispose of it, not its operator, first. Killing the operator alerts them to where you are going. At the very least if you destroy the MAV, they won't get you on their screen glowing in orange. I regularly play stealth and see a good amount of success utilizing it. There have been times I can stay in the same spot for the majority of a match because I am so well-hidden. When I am set up next to a flag, that is where the real fun begins because I can keep contesting/capturing flags with relatively low effort. Although contesting the flag obviously makes the enemy aware of your presence, this is actually not a huge problem. The more people they divert away from other flags to retake a flag that is continually being contested, the less people my team has to deal with in any one location. For best results, I actually try to hide off of the flag and let my squadmates do all the actual capturing. However, if I try to go hunting, my team loses that advantage.

As I said before, hunting is simply a temporary combat advantage. They might not notice you for the first few bullets, and maybe for the first few kills. But the people staring at their killcam are going to be communicating your presence. I know I do when someone decides to go for "stealth kills." And you know what, they get found and massacred. If their goal was to flank, then they royally failed. You cannot expect to expose yourself to the enemy and get away with it even if you are moving around. The sole benefit to stealth is that you are unnoticed. Killing gets you noticed. This is why "evasive stealth" which is not what Exyia is talking about is viable compared to "predatory stealth."

EDIT:

It is also why, to this day, one of my favorite examples of stealth is the following video.



Had Forger21 not spawned on tehmoriz, he probably could have stayed there indefinitely.

Is it a terribly boring playstyle? Why, yes. But stealth doesn't require action. It requires patience. Of which I have in abundance. Otherwise, I would not be able to just let my soldier lay still for minutes on end.



And if the enemy decides to use a Commander UAV on you, you can only hope that you have a Commander willing to use an EMP UAV on your location constantly. Otherwise, I can only say good luck. At least they considered you annoying enough to use a Commander UAV on which means that the enemy Commander might be blind on another section of the map. This gives your team a tiny window to capitalize on if they want to push.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

"Skill" may indeed be the most magical of words. Chant it well enough and any desire can be yours.

Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

This post has been edited 4 times, last edit by "NoctyrneSAGA" (Jun 3rd 2015, 9:11am)


Posts: 182

Date of registration
: Mar 5th 2013

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 8

  • Send private message

29

Wednesday, June 3rd 2015, 11:09am

I tend to play carbine oriented recon (mainly through necessity, as every other retard recon puts his beacon on a hill 200 miles away). Most of the time with a silenced weapon, often the ACW-R.

I am finding as of the recent patch the nerfs to accuracy have actually made it slightly harder to score kills (not just with the ACW-R) and so I have been playing with removing my suppressor. I still find that a laser on most weapons gives away your position more than anything else but I do feel like suppressed weapons could do with a slight buff. Maybe a minor increase in suppressed velocity?

Kind of on topic, I really hope in future BF games that the spawn beacon is NOT a tool for the recon class or that sniper is a separate class to recon. The two just don't mix.
Bad spawns lose games.

  • "Exyia" started this thread

Posts: 341

Date of registration
: Jun 29th 2013

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 5

  • Send private message

30

Wednesday, June 3rd 2015, 3:39pm

Smart players will be able to find you and kill you. Not to mention that they can very well deploy a MAV if they deem you a large enough threat.

Stealth is entirely viable and rather hard to punish for the reason that the enemy is completely unaware that they have a problem on their hands. They don't know they should be using a MAV on you if they're unaware of your presence at all. Of course, if there is a MAV in there, then it is highly advised to dispose of it, not its operator, first. Killing the operator alerts them to where you are going. At the very least if you destroy the MAV, they won't get you on their screen glowing in orange. I regularly play stealth and see a good amount of success utilizing it. There have been times I can stay in the same spot for the majority of a match because I am so well-hidden. When I am set up next to a flag, that is where the real fun begins because I can keep contesting/capturing flags with relatively low effort. Although contesting the flag obviously makes the enemy aware of your presence, this is actually not a huge problem. The more people they divert away from other flags to retake a flag that is continually being contested, the less people my team has to deal with in any one location. For best results, I actually try to hide off of the flag and let my squadmates do all the actual capturing. However, if I try to go hunting, my team loses that advantage.

except, the problem is now with the current tracer rounds, it's 90% just as easy to spot this player as someone without a full stealth loadout. THAT is the purpose of discussion

destroy the MAV? either with a stinger that will get me spotted on the minimap? or with tracers that are extremely obvious when firing up in the sky like that? (which you would have to do against good players who aren't flying the mav super low)

and the stealth you described just highlights the original question - what about that playstyle did the game mechanics help support? Practically everything you described can be done as a normal loadout without the drawbacks. You would be 90% just as easy to spot (only losing the 2second fade on spotting) yet taking a huge weapon hit in halved muzzle velocity). THAT is the problem with the current mechanics available to stealth players

if I'm going to half my muzzle velocity and give up perks like increased ammo and class benefitting perks (shortened defib, more motion beacons, etc etc) - I should feel like I gained something almost as equal. But I don't. I could do most of the "stealth" that you describe without any of that and still be fine