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NoctyrneSAGA

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61

Saturday, January 24th 2015, 8:56pm

When you have to choose between all unlocks available from the start and an unlock system, I find it hard to believe anyone would choose to actually go through the unlocks system. I can only think of masochists that'd want to actually do it.

then you might also want to ask why nearly nobody plays on the cte servers.


Implying that no unlocks is responsible for CTE being empty.

People only played it for the "netcode" fixes. As soon as those fixes went live, everyone went back to the normal game.

Even now, the only reason I can think of that people play CTE is for the helicopter and jet flight models which are going to be rolled out soon. Once that happens, CTE will be a ghost town again. And it will stay that way until DICE asks for players to help them test something else out.
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Maveco

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Saturday, January 24th 2015, 8:57pm

Not only the unlock system works to catch the interest of the average-joe untill at least his favorite class' last weapon unlock but it also focus his attention/learning while he plays/unlock new equipments instead of having most of the players in a server spending most of their time just spawning with various different gadgets to see what they do.

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Saturday, January 24th 2015, 11:48pm

I agree with both sides of the unlocks debate, but it could have easily been avoided by making the shortcut bundles available from day one. Let the people that enjoy unlocking stuff do that, and let the people that simply want to have all the options available have them. There would be no balance issue here because this isn't an RPG where unlocks are better, they're simply different.

Also, weapon attachment unlocks should be tied to points earned with the gun, not kills.
Who Enjoys, Wins

C0llis

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64

Sunday, January 25th 2015, 12:13am

Spoiler Spoiler

I don't buy the "Game X of genre Y shouldn't have mechanic Z because game X is of genre Y"-argument. Every game is different and saying that a particular mechanic doesn't belong in that game because of the genre doesn't really work. Games evolve over time, a FPS now and a FPS 15 years ago are vastly different, games can snap up mechanics from other genres or invent completely novel ones and arguing that those mechanics don't belong in a game simply because the game is of genre Y is awfully close minded.

Should suppression and disables go because they are inspired by crowd control and debuffs from RPGs? Should loadouts be removed and instead all weapons be spread out across maps for players to pick up and add to their infinitely big inventory which they can cycle through using the number keys, because that's how FPS games originally were?

I agree with 3VN, unlocks and progression adds depth to the game, a sort of game within the game to give players goals to work towards that are further away than the EOR-screen.

What you said regarding Suppression and disables is different because they're actual in-game mechanics that players utilize at their discretion. How do you utilize an unlock sytem? Unlocks are simply player options that have been arbitrarily locked away and don't add any sort of depth to the game at all.

All they do is create additional hoops for people to jump through in their quest to get the attachments they want on the weapons they want. Not to mention it creates a gap between player investment. A noob who just picked up the game is only going to have access to the default weapons while someone who's put in the time has access to more weapons and more attachments. This creates an imbalance in favor of the people who've put time in the game. They already have the advantage in experience, why should they have an advantage in weaponry?

When I buy Battlefield 4, I buy it to play Battlefield 4. I am not interested in playing Unlock Field 4 before I can play Battlefield 4. As someone who is actually going through the Battlepack grind, I can say that grinding through all the unlocks is the most annoying thing DICE has ever done.

What MGO2 did right was providing all options to the player from the start. They spent more time learning the game itself than playing a game before they were ready to play the game.

When you have to choose between all unlocks available from the start and an unlock system, I find it hard to believe anyone would choose to actually go through the unlocks system. I can only think of masochists that'd want to actually do it.
Yes, those mechanics are different to the unlock systems in the way players interact with them, but they are of relevant to the point in the sense that they are mechanics/systems/whatever that don't exist in (most) other FPSes. Quite a lot of players have argued that they shouldn't be in the game because BF is an FPS and FPSes are traditionally all about shooting dakka and it's unfair to impair another players ability to shoot dakka. Both you and I know that that argument doesn't hold because "other games of genre Y have/don't have it" is not a valid reason. Likewise, saying that unlock trees don't belong in BF because BF is an FPS doesn't work.


Regarding a noob vs. someone with more time/experience in the game: unless weapon balance is really botched the noob's inexperience is going to have a far greater influence on the outcome of an average gunfight than the fact that the noob didn't have weapon X. A bad player is going to be bad no matter what weapon he uses. However, a skilled player (say someone with lots of BF experience) who just bought the game can use the starting weapons to their strength and translate his skill into faster progress, allowing him to get to get to weapon X faster. Having to use weapons Y & co before he can unlock weapon X will not be a hindrance to his performance on the battlefield.


However, I agree that important things/gadgets should be available to all players from the start, like kit defining gadgets (AT launcher and torch for engy, defib and medbag for assault, ammobag and some indirect fire weapon for support, motion detector and spawn beacon for recon) and that the default vehicle load-outs should be viable (CMs and secondary weapons for vehicles etc.).

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And reading Youtube comments still gives me Turbo Cancer.

It really is quite frustrating when Helen Keller sets up her LMG in the only doorway in/out of an area.

What kind of question is that? Since when is cheese ever a bad idea?

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

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Sunday, January 25th 2015, 12:26am

To be fair you don't need more than an hour or so to have all the essential unlocks (Defib/Spawn Beacon/RPG) for each class and usable weapons. The AK-12 and CS-LR4 are great starting weapons, the MX4 is perfectly usable, the Type-88 is one unlock in and the AK5C is the 1st unlock.

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Sunday, January 25th 2015, 1:50am

I like having a lot of unlocks. The real reason I've stopped playing Battlefield as often as I used to is because I have all the weapons and the attachments and perks and so on for everything.

It's also why I don't really care about Final Stand, there's no new guns to unlock and play with. Not really much of a point in advancing anymore. The fact that all my battlepacks just turn into XP boosts doesn't help either.

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Sunday, January 25th 2015, 11:57am

I like having a lot of unlocks. The real reason I've stopped playing Battlefield as often as I used to is because I have all the weapons and the attachments and perks and so on for everything.

It's also why I don't really care about Final Stand, there's no new guns to unlock and play with. Not really much of a point in advancing anymore. The fact that all my battlepacks just turn into XP boosts doesn't help either.


I just had a quick look on your Battlelog Profile and I saw, that you have only mastered the AK-12 so far. And as for the rest of the weapons they are barely above 200 Kills, You simply cannot have all the attachments for all weapons unlocked!

This is actually the wrong reason for playing the game. But this leads to the question: Is BF a bad game, because it cant motivate without unlocks OR are just most players addicted to unlock stuff and its a problem of the society?

I play BF because I like the gameplay, therefore I think the reason is the trend of the society and not a flaw of gameplay!

@C0llis

I am pretty sure Noctyrne is against an Unlock System by the very principle of it. Although the current realisation in BF4 does not have such a drastic effect. Still, Gadget-Unlocks are a no go.
I can remember one of my first Conquest Rounds in BF4, where I really desperately needed an AA-Launcher, but I hadnt unlocked it then.

btw. my questions still havent been answered and I would really like to hear your opinion/answer:

Should Weapons be unlocked through Assignments instead of Points, in order to teach players how to play the game?

Do Vehicles really need Customization Options and should the Unlock System for Vehicles be removed?
still playin' Motorstorm

C0llis

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Sunday, January 25th 2015, 12:38pm

@C0llis

I am pretty sure Noctyrne is against an Unlock System by the very principle of it. Although the current realisation in BF4 does not have such a drastic effect. Still, Gadget-Unlocks are a no go.
I can remember one of my first Conquest Rounds in BF4, where I really desperately needed an AA-Launcher, but I hadnt unlocked it then.

btw. my questions still havent been answered and I would really like to hear your opinion/answer:

Should Weapons be unlocked through Assignments instead of Points, in order to teach players how to play the game?

Do Vehicles really need Customization Options and should the Unlock System for Vehicles be removed?
I think so to, but I think the positives of unlock systems in BF outweigh the negatives, i.e. the benefit to game longevity and bigger playerbase is outweighs the (really, really) minor gameplay imbalances that it causes.

Regarding your questions:

1: No, I think assignments for all the weapons would be too complex. There are only so many different assignments (assuming that the starting load-outs are rather limited) you can make until one assignment starts relying on another to be unlocked. What if you cannot finish the assignment to get weapon X before you have finished the assignment for weapon Y? The current points based systems are good enough, everyone can score points regardless of how new they are to the game but forcing players to read into assignment Z for weapon X and then understanding and performing the required actions makes it too much of a hassle, especially considering DICE's track record of weird/stupid assignment requirements.

2: Yes, I think customization for vehicles is a good thing, it allows players to adapt to the map, situation and intent and it adds depth to the game. Granted, vehicle customization options need to be better balanced against each other than they have been up until now, but now that we have CTE I don't think that will be a problem.

Things people said

And reading Youtube comments still gives me Turbo Cancer.

It really is quite frustrating when Helen Keller sets up her LMG in the only doorway in/out of an area.

What kind of question is that? Since when is cheese ever a bad idea?

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

NoctyrneSAGA

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Sunday, January 25th 2015, 12:40pm

@C0llis

I am pretty sure Noctyrne is against an Unlock System by the very principle of it. Although the current realisation in BF4 does not have such a drastic effect. Still, Gadget-Unlocks are a no go.
I can remember one of my first Conquest Rounds in BF4, where I really desperately needed an AA-Launcher, but I hadnt unlocked it then.

btw. my questions still havent been answered and I would really like to hear your opinion/answer:

Should Weapons be unlocked through Assignments instead of Points, in order to teach players how to play the game?

Do Vehicles really need Customization Options and should the Unlock System for Vehicles be removed?


The pinnacle of the unlock system's failings is Battlefield 3 on launch.

The very first unlock for vehicles was your very first countermeasure to lock on weaponry.

This resulted in the people who managed to unlock heatseekers to completely dominate over people who were just starting the game. They were guaranteed to land their heatseekers and the victim had no way out. DICE recognized this mistake and made IR Flares the default countermeasure.

But the fact of the matter is that something important to the player had been locked away from them and it was a detriment to gameplay.

While the BF3 IR Flare might be considered a one time incident that is unlikely to repeat itself, the core issue of why an unlock system is present still stands. Why are players being denied options for the sake of making them play the game?

I have already made my position clear.

@C0llis

You are also assuming that people will actually bother going through an unlock grind. There is no guarantee that just because there is something to unlock people will try to unlock it.
Data Browser

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Sunday, January 25th 2015, 2:49pm

@NoctyrneSAGA
What is the unlock grind you are referring to? This really beats me. Why would someone play the game intentionally to grind unlocks if 'grinding' per se was not what they get their BF4-satisfaction of.

One doesn't need to get the 510 kills and unlock every reskinned copy of every attachment. In deciding whether to enjoy a gun or not, when not motivated by stats in the first place, you only need some tens of kills to get the essential unlocks. That's like playing one round of TDM with a _slightly_ suboptimal setup. Given how good the attachment balance too is now, every gun is perfectly usable with not-the-best-for-a-given-purpose gear or even without the attachments.

In over 600 h, I have unlocked a small fraction of what I could have unlocked, and I have been a happy gamer - nothing relevant in the game has been restricted from me. With the kills I have with MG4, I could have fully unlocked 25 guns, but I saw zero need for it. My aim was to become a decent infantry player and I spent my grinding quota for that (took many beers). Everybody to their own I guess.

I also have quite a bit of stuff locked behind assignments coz I fucking hate the assignments. But hey, no-one forces me to do them and it is my choice to not bother. And yes, I will get that deagle unlocked one day :D.
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