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## Hardcore Hardcore Hardcore Hardcore Hardcore mode

Hey! If this is your first visit on symthic.com, also check out our weapon damage charts.
Currently we have charts for Battlefield 3, Call of Duty: Black Ops 2, Medal of Honor: Warfighter and Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3

Chronic Multiposter

Posts: 103

Date of registration
: Jul 11th 2014

Platform: 360

Location: 'Straya m8

Reputation modifier: 2

Wednesday, October 22nd 2014, 7:34am

### Hardcore Hardcore Hardcore Hardcore Hardcore mode

Ok, so backstory: my friend and I were at school today (obviously) and we were thinking at lunch, how cool would it be if Battlefield had some ultra realism mode. We decided that we wanted to design a mode that was really realistic, however it obviously couldn't be in BF4 due to time concerns. Anyway, I'm going to list our ideas down below if anybody wants to see them and maybe give us a few more ideas (we will try messaging DICE, so there is actually a reason to bother), or cross off ideas, and give reasons as to why. The ideas are talked about as if it was played in conquest, but there could be a way to make it work in most game modes probably.

1. We wanted there to be absolutely no HUD at all. However, inside of helicopters, jets, AC-130s, tanks, and all the vehicles I may have forgotten, there still would be speed, ammo counter, and stuff like that separately, just instead of being like a HUD there would be a screen where you would see how you normally would see out of the vehicle in core mode, but there is also a part around it meaning you see the ammo and everything as if it was real life, and the gunner screen and everything on an actual screen. Also in vehicles there would be no 3rd person.

2. More realistic injuries. One bullet to the head or neck would usually kill (however there is range concerns, and the fact that there would still have to be varying damage models sometimes), one to the chest would put you on the ground bleeding out for 10 seconds (but if a medic comes and does an animation of which they can be killed in, they save you), around the stomach is the same as chest, however 20 seconds. Note that in the pistol if one is equipped can still be fired, however with even worse spread than moving and standing hipfire. A shot to the right arm would mean that you drop your primary, and use your pistol, again with less ADS accuracy than standard moving and standing hipfire accuracy. A shot to the left arm would be reduced accuracy again, however you can still use the primary weapon. A shot to either leg means you cannot walk properly again for the rest of the life. You can possibly still limp, or hop depending on severity of wound, but if it's too bad you have to stay prone.

3. You can only spawn on squad leaders, on team controlled points, (any) friendly radio spawn beacons or on the friendly spawn area.

4. Instead of a minimap, because there is no HUD, you have a map that you can pull out of a bag or something. You hold out your sidearm while looking at the map. Instead of the map following where you are or showing where enemies are, it's a paper map of the entire area, and it shows only where points and initial spawns are. You have to work out where you are from surroundings and landmarks.

5. Guns are clunky, and actually take a while to aim. The longer the barrel is, the longer it will take.

6. Weight problems. In Battlefield currently, you have no reason to choose no gadget, you have no reason not to take a grip, little reason to not use whatever other attachment etc etc. To fix this, you have a maximum weight, and all weight also slows you down for every action and your character occasionally stumbles when sprinting, more commonly with more weight. Each gun has weight, each gadget has weight, each attachment has weight, ammo has weight. You get to choose (within reason) how much ammo you spawn with, however there is no ammo regen mechanic. Even with a box or something you could only maybe take one magazine.

7. Any player could only use a country specific weapon. If you wanted to use an AK weapon, you would have to be on the Russian team, whereas if you wanted a SCAR variant weapon, you had to be U.S.

8. Everyone wears goggles, or ballistic glasses. Whenever you are outside, the environment stains the eyewear, however, obviously over time, you could take a while. Flashlights and laser sights would blind the players less than in Battlefield 3, however much more than Battlefield 4, they currently feel useless.

9. Sniper rifles obviously shoot large caliber rounds. As such they should be one shotting people in the chest as well as head and neck. Their velocity would also be buffed to minimum 850m/s, and maximum 1000m/s. All sniper rifles would have 9.81m/s^2 drop. The ROF would be extremely low, however, this should be a big determining feature for what sniper rifle you use, as the drop being stuck at 9.81m/s^2 would mean one less variable. All sniper rifles should also have a 0.05 ADS non-moving spread. There should also be realistic ballistics like the Coriolis effect, wind, and temperature playing a role.

10. Any weapon on fully automatic should have insane recoil and SIPS, as IRL most people don't full auto at any sort of a decent range. For room clearing guns should however be very usable on fully automatic.

11. Obviously no 3D spotting, comes with no HUD, but wanted to be clear, hate that.

12. You drop the rest of the ammo in the magazine. If you find a gun on the ground that has any ammo in its mag, and the ammunition is the same as what you fire, you can take the magazine.

13. Friendly fire is on.

If you read that, thanks for your time, and hopefully you can give me feedback?

PvF 2017 Champion

Posts: 7,231

Date of registration
: Apr 3rd 2012

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 19

Wednesday, October 22nd 2014, 7:42am

### Quoted from "Camogilvie1"

4) Instead of a minimap, because there is no HUD, you have a map that you can pull out of a bag or something. You hold out your sidearm while looking at the map. Instead of the map following where you are or showing where enemies are, it's a paper map of the entire area, and it shows only where points and initial spawns are. You have to work out where you are from surroundings and landmarks.

Google Glass would like a word with you

### Quoted from "Camogilvie1"

12) You drop the rest of the ammo in the magazine.

The US Government would like to discuss why you are wasting government resources.

If you really want to be super realistic, you should have the game uninstall after you die. No killcam, nothing. As soon as you die, game uninstalled. Think this is harsh?

OSGONs or One Session Games Of Narrative.

Developed because one game developer felt that respawns, checkpoints, extra lives, etc. were noob crutches that did not properly communicate to the player that they have failed. Similar to how you can't rewind time in real life, you can't redo anything in an OSGON. He grew tired of people dying in playthroughs and slowly learning through trial and error how to beat bosses, clear dungeons, grow their character, etc. Thus, he developed the OSGON to illustrate the merciless perpetual forward movement of time.

In an OSGON, there is a predetermined time and place for the game. If you can't make it, too bad, you can't go to the next session.

If you die in the OSGON, too bad, you're kicked out and can't participate again. In a video game OSGON, the game uninstalls itself and you're not able to purchase or install a new copy.

You ruined your character's stats? Tough luck. No stat redistribution.

Any choice you make in the OSGON carries over to the next session.

No restarts, no respawns, no second chances. Think hard about the choices you make.

Seriously though, for the super hardcore milsim role players, there's already ARMA.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

"Skill" may indeed be the most magical of words. Chant it well enough and any desire can be yours.

Are you a scrub?

### Quoted from "blahdy"

If it flies, it dies™.

Posts: 3,292

Date of registration
: Apr 26th 2013

Platform: PS4

Location: Arizona, USA

Reputation modifier: 15

Wednesday, October 22nd 2014, 7:53am

I know I would never play Hardcore Hardcore. That sounds absolutely infuriating.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

### Source code

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AccelerationMultiplier 5.0
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AccelerationInputThreshold 0.98
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AttractOwnSpeedInfluence 0.0
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AttractOwnRequiredMovementForMaximumAttract 0.0
AttractStartInputThreshold 0.0
AttractMoveInputCap 0.0
AttractYawStrength 0.0
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MaxToTargetXZAngle 45.0
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SnapZoomLateralSpeedLimit 1000.0
SnapZoomTime 0.2
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SnapZoomReticlePointPriority 999
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### My "Contributions"

Chronic Multiposter

Posts: 103

Date of registration
: Jul 11th 2014

Platform: 360

Location: 'Straya m8

Reputation modifier: 2

Wednesday, October 22nd 2014, 8:04am

### Quoted from "NoctyrneSAGA"

Quoted from "Camogilvie1"

As for wasting resources, you aren't going to keep the magazine after you took it out of the gun, nor would you take the bullets out with nowhere to put them. Solution right there.

You do realize that there are pouches specifically designed for soldiers to put in empty mags? Like this one.

And that if their magazine still has bullets left they save it? Something you can clearly see with the Deagles reload animation.
Oh. Okay. Well, I suppose use that then.

### Quoted from "JSLICE20"

I struggle to find the current iteration of Hardcore enjoyable. Hardcore Hardcore would just be masochism.
Fair enough. I suppose I can understand where you're coming from.

Can't get a title

Posts: 1,531

Date of registration
: Dec 23rd 2013

Platform: Xbox One

Location: The Land of Multitudinous Kangaroos

Reputation modifier: 13

Wednesday, October 22nd 2014, 9:50am

I don't really like hardcore at the moment, so i'm not sure about ultra hardcore. But here's my thoughts:

1. I wouldn't mind this at all. Makes players actually have to look at what team they're on and learn the models for the classes.

2. One shot to kill? (*Cough cough aim assist) You'd have to rebalance every gun, dmrs and shotguns would be way underpowered, and the AEK would probably be go to for most people (even though it already is). In short this would take the fun out of the game. Even though it's not that realistic, I think current hardcore dmg would be fine for this.

4. I wouldn't object, as in hardcore you have no minimap. But you might as well not ever pull out the map as most people know the map layouts from core, so there's really no point.

5. I'm fine with this idea, but that means no more M420B(LAZEIT) for me… Maybe go with irl weights?

6. I like this. No problems with me here. Again though, go with irl weights?

7. Again, serious gun rebalancing would need to be done. If you took the in-game stats from the AK74M in BF3 and pitted them against the BF4 SCAR-H the SCAR would win hands down. Besides, does that mean you'd have to have a different faction for each gun? Does that mean only the French can use the FAMAS and Belgians use the SCAR? Plus, then you'd have to remember the player models for each faction because you have no minimap and that'd be hard when there are 30+ factions.

8. Google glass. Although I do agree with the flashlight buff. Although why would you need to wear goggles anyway?

9. Too much to take in for most players considering the pace of the game. Btw how would you be able to tell the wind direction? You have no hud.

10. Wouldn't mind this.

12. ^

13 ^ claymores pls
something something Model 8 bestgun

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:

Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

### Quoted from "Zer0Cod3x"

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

### Quoted from "Veritable"

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.

Chronic Multiposter

Posts: 103

Date of registration
: Jul 11th 2014

Platform: 360

Location: 'Straya m8

Reputation modifier: 2

Wednesday, October 22nd 2014, 11:02am

### Quoted from "Zer0Cod3x"

I don't really like hardcore at the moment, so i'm not sure about ultra hardcore. But here's my thoughts:

1. I wouldn't mind this at all. Makes players actually have to look at what team they're on and learn the models for the classes.

2. One shot to kill? (*Cough cough aim assist) You'd have to rebalance every gun, dmrs and shotguns would be way underpowered, and the AEK would probably be go to for most people (even though it already is). In short this would take the fun out of the game. Even though it's not that realistic, I think current hardcore dmg would be fine for this.

4. I wouldn't object, as in hardcore you have no minimap. But you might as well not ever pull out the map as most people know the map layouts from core, so there's really no point.

5. I'm fine with this idea, but that means no more M420B(LAZEIT) for me… Maybe go with irl weights?

6. I like this. No problems with me here. Again though, go with irl weights?

7. Again, serious gun rebalancing would need to be done. If you took the in-game stats from the AK74M in BF3 and pitted them against the BF4 SCAR-H the SCAR would win hands down. Besides, does that mean you'd have to have a different faction for each gun? Does that mean only the French can use the FAMAS and Belgians use the SCAR? Plus, then you'd have to remember the player models for each faction because you have no minimap and that'd be hard when there are 30+ factions.

8. Google glass. Although I do agree with the flashlight buff. Although why would you need to wear goggles anyway?

9. Too much to take in for most players considering the pace of the game. Btw how would you be able to tell the wind direction? You have no hud.

10. Wouldn't mind this.

12. ^

13 ^ claymores pls
for 2, you probably would, however due to time concerns, as I said before, it wouldn't be in 4, so they could balance very gun so that its fair in all the modes...
3. Point taken
4. It would still be cool. What if the maps were so big that you did need it?
5. Yeah, I'd say maybe around 3-4 KG for most ARs, around 5 KG for LMGs, something like 1.5 or 2 KG for PDWs etc etc.
6. Yeah, meant that
7. No, we would have the factions already in the game. Just the ingame faction specifics. Otherwise there would be way way way too many.
8. Environment, smoke. I didn't really explain this well, but it made sense when me and my friend were talking about it.
9. Maybe a way of picking up grass or something? I don't know. Wind probably wouldn't work well thinking about it, agree with you, but the other things don't make a huge difference unless its really really far range.
11. 12. and 13. I realise that, but I wanted to make sure that people would realise that was in the game.

Any ideas about what else there could be though? I really want some more ideas.

Posts: 1

Date of registration
: Oct 22nd 2014

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 1

Wednesday, October 22nd 2014, 12:03pm

Just to clarify, i am the second person working on this. not as well received as i had hoped, but hopefully it can be improved and made into an actual gametype. I think that for the sake of game balance, damage would have to be slightly lowered (although i think it should be in between hardcore and the new mode, rather than just standard hardcore damage) and for the person who said it's masochistic, the whole point of the mode is that it is unforgiving and extremely difficult. Also, remember to add that snipers and DMRs need a major buff to drop and velocity. For the person who said that DMRs would need a damage buff, it may not necessarily need a buff but instead players would need to adopt a new playstyle. For example, snipers would be fairly heavy and clunky weapons, meaning slower movespeed. Going with improved velocity, this could make DMRs more of a scout version of a sniper rather than what they are in core-hardcore.
We do not forgive. We do not forget. Expect Us.