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21

Saturday, September 20th 2014, 6:10am

suppression is a viable tactic ie firing over someone's head to keep them using that cover

That's the problem. CTE suppression only involves sight sway and vignetting, none of which actually hinder the player's effectiveness in a meaningful way. In other words, if you fire at someone's head, they will probably just shoot back instead of taking cover. At that point, you might as well remove suppression entirely (though hopefully it won't happen).

There have been a lot of good suggestions about implementing suppression in the game, including Noctyrne's idea of reverse suppression scaling to avoid the whole 'suppression rewards missing' thing. I'm eager to see how exactly DICE goes about this.


Having someone shoot at where you head would appear is a pretty effective mechanic at keeping people's heads down. It's a video game, if they wanna peek and get blown away cos no fear of dying in a game so be it. You are already know where they are and are pre firing them so how much more of an advantage do people need. The guy in cover then peeking is already at a huge disadvantage, if he does manage to pull of a good peek and shot good luck to him.
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NoctyrneSAGA

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22

Saturday, September 20th 2014, 6:14am

"Adjustments to slower rate of fire weapons to make them easier to use at longer ranges vs higher ROF weapons"
Aside from the visual recoil fix, what exactly are these "adjustments"? Because on CTE all I hear is how the CTE changes made slow ROF weapons even more useless.


Higher bullet velocity. Lets them reach out and touch longer range targets better.

And most people on CTE probably couldn't tell you the difference between 5 and -5.

All people looked at for their complaints were damage model, DPS, and TTK. They completely neglected range restrictions due to HRecoil, spread, and SIPS.

They honestly think the AEK can beat the SAR-21 past 50m. Good one.

In certain situations, sure suppression is a viable tactic ie firing over someone's head to keep them using that cover but in general I would suggest that's it's biggest effect is in normal fire fight situations.

There have been a lot of good suggestions about implementing suppression in the game, including Noctyrne's idea of reverse suppression scaling to avoid the whole 'suppression rewards missing' thing. I'm eager to see how exactly DICE goes about this.


Labby's suggestion for an exponential curve is better. The whole point of reversed scaling was to clearly differentiate shooting to kill and suppressing fire. Its weakness is that before 1.5m you'll be doing a lot of Suppression and past 1.5m, suddenly you're doing nothing. This discontinuity is why Labby says it won't work.

Also, the whole point of Suppressing fire is to force people back into cover. That way, they don't hurt your teammates.
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23

Saturday, September 20th 2014, 6:26am

"Adjustments to slower rate of fire weapons to make them easier to use at longer ranges vs higher ROF weapons"
Aside from the visual recoil fix, what exactly are these "adjustments"? Because on CTE all I hear is how the CTE changes made slow ROF weapons even more useless.

Those adjustments are lower h-recoil and first shot multiplier for many of them. All of the 700rpm AR's are really, really good now. Even the SAR21 at 600 rpm isn't bad, since it has practically no recoil now.

Ignore whiners on the forums.


And not only does Visual Recoil naturally affect more precise guns more, but the more precise ones actually tended to have worse VR, like the G36C and Qubes.
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Saturday, September 20th 2014, 3:49pm

Noct, I completely agree that people should use suppressive fire. However I wanted to be clear on the difference between suppressive fire and suppression. One is a tactic, one is a mechanic.

What I was saying is that, suppressing fire itself already puts you at an advantage vs the guy in cover. You don't then need further suppression (game mechanic) to make the guy trying to shoot back miss his shoots. You already have all the advantages, by having more (suppression) it makes this game even more defensive based and slows game play down.

Also your example...force them back into cover. Well if you can see them, why aren't you shooting to kill? I get the idea of suppression if they are in cover, but if they are out of cover kill them rather than missing. Just goes back to rewarding missing rather than hitting.
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ViperFTW

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25

Saturday, September 20th 2014, 4:27pm

@jgstonedraider

Because BF4 is a game so the mechanic helps provide much more interesting ways of thinking.
Lemme explain. Real life suppressive fire forces the enemy into cover, why does that work? Bullets hurt, human beings will instinctively avoid pain so we get our heads down however there's no feedback in BF4, you get shot and you don't feel anything, same applies if you die. What that means is the tactic is useless, firing at people to force them into cover does nothing cos they're just going to ignore you but with a suppression mechanic you suddenly are unable to fire back so you begin to avoid the stupid mindset of 'just shoot back'.

I do, however, agree with what Noctyrne says in that there should be better distinction between shooting to kill and shooting to suppress.

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Saturday, September 20th 2014, 5:15pm

Viper you used "is a game" in 1st sentence and then "real life" in the second sentence, are we playing a game or a sim? Using the RL argument falls on it's face to many times when comparing BF4 to RL. Jet's, MAA etc etc etc

One thing I think we can all agree on is that missing shouldn't be rewarded, but I dunno about you, when I'm playing and bullets are zipping around me, I don't need any more disadvantage as I'm already pretty well at a disadvantage by jumping around pooping my pants (figuratively speaking) trying to avoid getting shot. I think the whole "just shoot back" argument has been over done. If time your peek correctly between the enemy suppressing over you, that takes skill and timing so you shouldn't have additional inaccuracy piled on top of all the other disadvantages you are under.

The current vignette thing provides more immersion but no real extra disadvantages, it could be increased a little but it's still far better than adding an additional random inaccuracy which you cannot compensate for.
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Saturday, September 20th 2014, 5:39pm

Viper you used "is a game" in 1st sentence and then "real life" in the second sentence, are we playing a game or a sim? Using the RL argument falls on it's face to many times when comparing BF4 to RL. Jet's, MAA etc etc etc

One thing I think we can all agree on is that missing shouldn't be rewarded, but I dunno about you, when I'm playing and bullets are zipping around me, I don't need any more disadvantage as I'm already pretty well at a disadvantage by jumping around pooping my pants (figuratively speaking) trying to avoid getting shot. I think the whole "just shoot back" argument has been over done. If time your peek correctly between the enemy suppressing over you, that takes skill and timing so you shouldn't have additional inaccuracy piled on top of all the other disadvantages you are under.

The current vignette thing provides more immersion but no real extra disadvantages, it could be increased a little but it's still far better than adding an additional random inaccuracy which you cannot compensate for.


...Well I can see why you're called 'Stoned' now I guess, only reason I can think of behind that rather...unusual opening sentence. The "Is a game" bit referred to the game called 'Battlefield 4', its very good and you should try it, whereas the "real life" bit referred to actual real life.

I think you've missed my point entirely (with the exception of your closing sentence, which I'll get to in a little while). I was comparing BF4 to real life because I was trying to point out why minimal suppression fails, there's no physical feedback or fears of mortality in a video game that would interfere with a real life human in a situation like that, whereas, as you yourself put it, you can just jump around trying not to get shot and "time your peek correctly" to get the guy whereas that wouldn't enter your head in reality.
Now before you start going "but its a game, why should there be something like that in it?", think for a second about what suppression does. It forces you into a much more interesting and tactically minded way of thinking that "just shoot back", its making you think in a much more different way that years and years of video gaming has taught you to think and I think a lot of fantastic ways of playing, tactics and strategies could (and indeed have) come from that!

THAT is why I think suppression shouldn't be reduced to some funny colours on your screen but should have some damn teeth behind it, because in BF3 this mechanic which emulates something that I don't think has been seem in games before (or not the ones I've played at least) was introduced and I think its silly to drop it because people aren't stopping to think about the reasoning and ability behind it...

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Saturday, September 20th 2014, 5:45pm

In the suppressios discussion I find the shoot to kill argument stupid to be honest. Of course we are shooting to kill, but our guns are not 100% accurate in the first place. On average our accuracy is about 15-20%, so you will be missing most of your shots regardless of you wanting to hit or wanting to suppress only. Adding a gameplay mechanic to missed and wasted shots is just sensible, as well as realistic and immersion creating.
If you then take into account how marginal the effect of suppression is for the average gunfight, the whole discussion becomes redundant. That is taking a position against suppression in this game. Debating how the mechanic should work, is sensible though.

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Saturday, September 20th 2014, 7:46pm

Its relatively easy to tell those that use suppression and those that dont.

@viperFTW

Check out arma 3's ongoing battle with how suppression should work. Temp fatigue drain effects/vignette/f'd up aim its all quite interesting to read. Amusingly enough quite a few people want even more pros and cons to it.

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Saturday, September 20th 2014, 7:48pm

Its relatively easy to tell those that use suppression and those that dont.

@viperFTW

Check out arma 3's ongoing battle with how suppression should work. Temp fatigue drain effects/vignette/f'd up aim its all quite interesting to read. Amusingly enough quite a few people want even more pros and cons to it.


Mmm, sounds it actually. My friend told me there was a video done by DICE towards the end of Battlefield 3 about how Suppression came to be and why they thought it was so integral, not had much luck tracking it down though :pinch:

And yeah, whereas I don't disagree with you I must press that its a sad thing that. It annoys me that there are people in the game that are so damn blind and even ignorant to the way the game is, especially regarding suppression! And I'm not talking about people wanting change but people who insist that the game should be something, LevelCap is the worst offender with his continuous ramblings about Counter Strike and such but he is by no means the only one!
But that's about enough from me, need to calm down after just thinking about that :D

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