Welcome to symthic forums! We would love if you'd register!
You don't have to be expert in bit baking, everyone is more than welcome to join our community.

You are not logged in.

Hey! If this is your first visit on symthic.com, also check out our weapon damage charts.
Currently we have charts for Battlefield 3, Call of Duty: Black Ops 2, Medal of Honor: Warfighter and Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3

  • "BleedingUranium" started this thread

Posts: 3,636

Date of registration
: Mar 19th 2014

Platform: Xbox One

Location: Canada

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 16

  • Send private message

1

Monday, September 8th 2014, 3:39am

Grips: Straight Upgrades

As everyone knows, Grips are a straight upgrade to a gun, unlike every other category, meaning there's no tradeoff involved, which goes against the idea that a naked gun is the most all-round gun.







Naturally, balance dictates that any time you specialize, you trade something for that, and just like Iron Sights, no accessory, and no barrel, no grip is a perfectly legitimate option in the game... except it's the only one that's 100% useless to ever use. Regardless, people still like to claim "but the downside is you don't get the others", which isn't a very good argument when all the other attachments are considered; Optics, Accessories, and Barrels all have a downside along with them (bar Flash Hider, but I'll come back to that), yet Grips don't.

After having this bother me to no end since launch, and seeing more and more people feels the same way, notably recently, and today when a thread on this was started by someone else on Forumfield, I figured it would be good to pitch this to the more educated crowd over here, especially when the BL thread actually went pretty well considering BL's tendency to hate on anything that "nerfs" or changes their precious stuff, even when it's for the better.

My proposal, though I'm certainly open to change on the exact penalties and their values, is that each grips would get a small amount of a different grip's trait as a penalty, about one third of it. The idea here is to make choosing a grip a tradeoff, but without actually negatively affecting that Grip when used in its role; basically you'll only experience the downside when out of that attachment's element.


Ergo: 5% spread increase penalty. This would help enforce that this is supposed to be the more close range, on the move grip, but not for spraying.

Stubby: 11% FSM penalty. This highlights its role as a sustained fire grip, somewhat of a mini Bipod; good for sustained fire but not tapfiring.

Angled: 17% on the move penalty. As the long range and tapfire grip, moving should be effectively irrelevant when in its role.

Bipod: 20% hipfire penalty. Worse hipfire seems like a pretty natural tradeoff for extreme ADS precision.

Flash Hider: 5% hipfire penalty. As a mid to long range attachment with a very minor advantage, a very minor negative is appropriate.

Straight Pull: ? While this should get a small downside of some sort for consistency (and, as with all of them, to make the game more interesting), I don't have any ideas at the moment. Something related to it being the most spammy/CQB of the three.


If you don't like this idea, I'd really like to see reasons other than "what we have now works, don't change it" and such, because honestly I think you guys are better than that. "Using a grip prevents use of the others" is, again, not a great argument either because every other category works like this, and I also feel that's pretty bad balance. However, I'm absolutely open to changes on what the downsides are and/or what their values are.
Who Enjoys, Wins

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "BleedingUranium" (Sep 8th 2014, 3:53am)


NoctyrneSAGA

PvF 2017 Champion

(9,997)

Posts: 7,177

Date of registration
: Apr 3rd 2012

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 19

  • Send private message

2

Monday, September 8th 2014, 4:07am

Grips don't need downsides. The fact they only have positives is very nice. In fact, all balancing should follow this philosophy.

Opportunity Cost is enough of a downside and a hard nerf isn't really needed.




BTW, nerfing the Flash Hider will make it like it was in BF3: odd one out.




Also, any balancing should also remember Demize99's rule of thumb: "Players only feel a difference at 50%"
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "NoctyrneSAGA" (Sep 8th 2014, 4:20am)


  • "BleedingUranium" started this thread

Posts: 3,636

Date of registration
: Mar 19th 2014

Platform: Xbox One

Location: Canada

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 16

  • Send private message

3

Monday, September 8th 2014, 4:38am

Grips don't need downsides. The fact they only have positives is very nice. In fact, all balancing should follow this philosophy.

Also, any balancing should also remember Demize99's rule of thumb: "Players only feel a difference at 50%"


I'll rephrase the concept then: One option out of four offers zero benefits, that's not good balance; you're looking at No Grip as if it's not a valid option, when really it's just Grip #4, and should be treated like just like Iron Sights, meaning not something you instantly replace. The only good alternative would be to give No Grip a positive trait, like how Irons has some.

Balancing is physiological too; even if you added a 1% X penalty to all grips, people would consider not using them all the time.
Who Enjoys, Wins

Posts: 14

Date of registration
: Sep 1st 2014

Platform: 360

Location: USA

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 1

  • Send private message

4

Monday, September 8th 2014, 4:44am

For the straight pull an option for the nerf, I don't think it needs one, but an option would be to add an increase to the FSM, wouldn't hurt CQB which is what it's for but it would not make it as good for longer ranges. For the grips I don't think that a nerf for any of them is necessary. They already have to be chosen wisely, it's not like you can just slap on a grip and it makes you automatically better in every way, they are used to make a gun more optimized for a certain role. Also it completely makes sense that having a grip vs nothing helps a gun and does not harm it. Grips are used to reign in a guns less desirable traits (extreme FSM, F2000 i'm looking at you). This makes you have to think about if it is a better idea to try to help an extreme stat, or to make it better at what it's good at. Adding a nerf would just limit effectiveness; the limit in effectiveness is, as you stated, you are not using the desirable grip. thats how it should be IMO.

Edit: i think the best way to remedy this is to maybe give no grip a benefit in all the categories, and selecting a grip is just specialization.

  • "BleedingUranium" started this thread

Posts: 3,636

Date of registration
: Mar 19th 2014

Platform: Xbox One

Location: Canada

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 16

  • Send private message

5

Monday, September 8th 2014, 5:03am

i think the best way to remedy this is to maybe give no grip a benefit in all the categories, and selecting a grip is just specialization.


This would be acceptable. The idea at its most basic is to make everything a valid option, and while Flash Hider/Straight Pull don't really matter, the Grip one does.
Who Enjoys, Wins

Posts: 2

Date of registration
: Sep 8th 2014

Platform: Xbox One

Location: Melbourne, Australia

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 1

  • Send private message

6

Monday, September 8th 2014, 5:45am

I think the best way to remedy this is to maybe give no grip a benefit in all the categories, and selecting a grip is just specialization.

That sounds like a good idea, but wouldn't it then be the same as applying a nerf into 2 stats on each grip instead of one?

Posts: 110

Date of registration
: May 8th 2014

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 3

  • Send private message

7

Monday, September 8th 2014, 5:51am

No grip actually serves a purpose.

Although seen by some as just a mechanism for slowing down content utilisation and selling battlepacks, the weapon upgrade system is actually quite intuitive.

By starting you with no grips, you get a feel for the base gun, then when introducing a new grip you get a feel for how powerful that grip is going to be in your setup. Without the initial no-grip juxtaposition, players wont have a null state to compare the value of their attachments too. (I realise later on in levels, with Battlepacks, you will sometimes start with grips available).

BF4 is not built just entirely for those who dig out stats on forums and theory craft after all. Though, If you ever had the thought while using a new gun "oh, this is going to be great when I unlock 'X grip'!" then the null state has achieved its goal. Even if you've theory-crafted it, you can get a sense of confirmation by the actual feel of the weapon.

  • "BleedingUranium" started this thread

Posts: 3,636

Date of registration
: Mar 19th 2014

Platform: Xbox One

Location: Canada

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 16

  • Send private message

8

Monday, September 8th 2014, 6:08am

I think the best way to remedy this is to maybe give no grip a benefit in all the categories, and selecting a grip is just specialization.

That sounds like a good idea, but wouldn't it then be the same as applying a nerf into 2 stats on each grip instead of one?


Unless I'm mistaken in what he's saying, giving No Grip a benefit wouldn't be a nerf to the other grips, it would just make it Grip #4, with its own advantage.

No grip actually serves a purpose.


I get what you're saying, but again that doesn't apply to the other categories. Well, only Barrel, but that's because Barrel is the only category that really has downsides. The only statistical difference in Accessory is the Laser's hipfire bonus, which doesn't really apply in the "getting the feel for the gun" sense. Iron sights are very much their own sight option, with higher zoom than RDS/Holos, and faster ADS time; every other sight will ADS slower than Irons.

In fact, that would be a pretty good small benefit for No Grip: faster ADS time.
Who Enjoys, Wins

NoctyrneSAGA

PvF 2017 Champion

(9,997)

Posts: 7,177

Date of registration
: Apr 3rd 2012

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 19

  • Send private message

9

Monday, September 8th 2014, 6:11am

Grips don't need downsides. The fact they only have positives is very nice. In fact, all balancing should follow this philosophy.

Also, any balancing should also remember Demize99's rule of thumb: "Players only feel a difference at 50%"


I'll rephrase the concept then: One option out of four offers zero benefits, that's not good balance; you're looking at No Grip as if it's not a valid option, when really it's just Grip #4, and should be treated like just like Iron Sights, meaning not something you instantly replace. The only good alternative would be to give No Grip a positive trait, like how Irons has some.

Balancing is physiological too; even if you added a 1% X penalty to all grips, people would consider not using them all the time.


Unfortunately, that's not entirely the case either. Just look at the BF3 Flash Hider. It barely did anything and they slapped on a penalty. Nobody used it. Now granted, the HBAR far outclassed it, but it's still a case where slapping on negatives where they aren't warranted actually screwed it over.

Same thing with these grips. Opportunity Cost is sufficient as a downside. Why should people run "NO ATTACHMENT?" It's frankly, quite stupid. Just like how people don't use lasers because they're too lazy to turn it off. It's a free hipfire bonus. Why the hell won't you use it?

They want to use suboptimal builds, let them. Useful attachments shouldn't get brand-new penalties because the null state needs to be attractive.


Also, Ironsights only have higher zoom IIRC. The ADS time benefit is only in unzoom if BF4 follows BF3.

No Barrel is also clearly inferior to the Flash Hider.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

  • "BleedingUranium" started this thread

Posts: 3,636

Date of registration
: Mar 19th 2014

Platform: Xbox One

Location: Canada

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 16

  • Send private message

10

Monday, September 8th 2014, 6:15am

Okay, that's true, fair enough Noctyrne, but what about giving No Grip a small bonus, à la Iron Sights?

The thing with Flash Hider is it's a BP unlock, not the default one, and the advantage is so minor it doesn't really matter either way. Same idea with lasers, lights, magnifiers, and canted, they can be left of simply for convenience. No Grip is the only one that's notably worse.
Who Enjoys, Wins