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Miffyli

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11

Tuesday, August 26th 2014, 6:15pm

Also, mobility crits should be removed from lock-on missiles.

This, especially for ARs and maybe AA mines. MAAs using ARs can disable almost any heli from distance as long they hover in same area longer than a brief moment and then finish off with main gun if possible (either way, leaves the target heli mobility disabled). AA mines are like relentless guys with stringer (less range?) and I wouldn't mind them much, but the mobility hit always leaves one vulnerable to tanks/direct AT weapons and to other jets/helis. Sure they don't have much range but in small maps like Shangai they cover way too much.
Then again, this would make ARs and AA mines bit more useless.
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

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Tuesday, August 26th 2014, 6:26pm

Holy Christ that was too much to read. My take: take away the ability of scout helicopters to be repaired by a passenger, i.e. passenger has to get out and repair the outside of the vehicle-- thereby bringing them in line with attack helis. #2, increase the damage on the main cannon of stealth jets. Everything else is fine as it is.

Sorry dude, people don't want to go back to BFBC2 - that food chain was badly broken.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Mchead24" (Aug 26th 2014, 6:33pm)


Miffyli

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13

Tuesday, August 26th 2014, 6:36pm

Holy Christ that was too much to read. My take: take away the ability of scout helicopters to be repaired by a passenger, i.e. passenger has to get out and repair the outside of the vehicle-- thereby bringing them in line with attack helis. #2, increase the damage on the main cannon of stealth jets. Everything else is fine as it is.

Scout heli's repair has been nerfed once (or twice?) already. Compared to attack heli, scouts have to be closer to enemy to do proper damage and are more vurnable to enemy fire.
Why increase the damage of stealth jets? They are more than capable of shredding anything that flies with their cannons (any of them. It's just matter of pilot which suits for them). Sure, they are useless against heavier armor, but that's why we have attack jet dealing with air-to-ground. If you want to help ground forces, use guided missiles or try to hit infantry / light vehicles with main cannon.
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

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14

Tuesday, August 26th 2014, 7:05pm

Quoted from "Mchead24"



Holy Christ that was too much to read. My take: take away the ability of scout helicopters to be repaired by a passenger, i.e. passenger has to get out and repair the outside of the vehicle-- thereby bringing them in line with attack helis. #2, increase the damage on the main cannon of stealth jets. Everything else is fine as it is.
Scout heli's repair has been nerfed once (or twice?) already. Compared to attack heli, scouts have to be closer to enemy to do proper damage and are more vurnable to enemy fire.
Why increase the damage of stealth jets? They are more than capable of shredding anything that flies with their cannons (any of them. It's just matter of pilot which suits for them). Sure, they are useless against heavier armor, but that's why we have attack jet dealing with air-to-ground. If you want to help ground forces, use guided missiles or try to hit infantry / light vehicles with main cannon.
Holy Christ that was too much to read. My take: take away the ability of scout helicopters to be repaired by a passenger, i.e. passenger has to get out and repair the outside of the vehicle-- thereby bringing them in line with attack helis. #2, increase the damage on the main cannon of stealth jets. Everything else is fine as it is.

Scout heli's repair has been nerfed once (or twice?) already. Compared to attack heli, scouts have to be closer to enemy to do proper damage and are more vurnable to enemy fire.
Why increase the damage of stealth jets? They are more than capable of shredding anything that flies with their cannons (any of them. It's just matter of pilot which suits for them). Sure, they are useless against heavier armor, but that's why we have attack jet dealing with air-to-ground. If you want to help ground forces, use guided missiles or try to hit infantry / light vehicles with main cannon.
I wasn't aware that scouts had been nerfed, so I might be wrong on that take.

Stealth jet main cannon does not shred anything that flies. It takes forever with the main cannon to even take out an AC-130.

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Tuesday, August 26th 2014, 7:12pm

uMM 1 PASS is forever?

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Tuesday, August 26th 2014, 7:16pm

I think you've confused the stealth with the attack.

Natsu

Aye sir!

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17

Tuesday, August 26th 2014, 7:25pm

@ Jslice

I pretty much disagree with everything you mentioned. I *know* that the actual pub game is devoid of teamwork and communication. I believe the game should be balanced entirely around two competitive clans all working together, and if the casual game plays like garbage then that is the players' problem. I don't care about public games at all when it comes to balance. I'm a huge fan of combined arms, and if I had my way I would split the game so much to where a single player could not really accomplish anything. For instance, I think there should be an assault and medic split, where the medic class gets a horrible weapon that cannot kill hardly anyone. Same thing for engineer and anti-tank, I think the anti-tank should get a horrible weapon so that it is not effective against both infantry and vehicles.

All of this goes back to game balance theory. Do you want to balance the game around casuals or around the elite? The game will fall apart and play like trash if you balance it around lower levels of play once you step into the higher skill levels. If balanced around the higher levels, players feel forced to work together or get screwed over massively. I'm personally in favor of absolutely morbid pubstompings, and even vicious spawn traps. I've always been of the mindset that if a team allows the enemy to spawntrap them in a corner, they deserve to be ravaged there. Never been a fan of CoD spawns past CoD4, where they reward you for getting taken over by spawning you in the enemy spawn. I guess it all depends on how vicious and unforgiving you want the game to be. Do you want a casual game where a good air pilot can put off a pubstomping display, but that same player will never use an aircraft in a game where his/her life depended on it? Or do you want a game where the core public game is a living hell for the average player, but is a masterpiece of balance when everyone is playing at the highest level of skill?

Also, I cannot disagree more with anyone that thinks BC2 was imbalanced. I thought the air balance was spot on in that game. At least on PC version where you could not enter the enemy spawn, the chopper was routinely forced to land and repair by gunfire, and you would have people setting up with RPG/Gustav in the usual landing areas to sneak a shot in. The flight ceiling was very low as well. The only time the chopper appeared imbalanced was in public games where no one communicated. I guarantee you if you had all your tank gunners firing at it, it would be forced to stay in its spawn repairing itself most of the time. And even if it gets out into the field to circle strafe, you just needed 3-4 engineers with rockets on the outer rings of its circle lining up shots.

@Miffyli The stealth jet cannon does virtually nothing to non-aircraft. I don't think anyone wants a buff to its cannon against aircraft, but its guns should make proportional sense compared to the kind of armor it is already good against (air).

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18

Tuesday, August 26th 2014, 7:40pm

JSLICE20 You seem to have some severe hatred of jets I have noticed =p One thing I have noticed with all your proposed balancing to jets seems to be you're missing ease of use for jets. Yes jets can wreck shop if used properly, but on average how many people can use them effectively enough to do that? I bet it's way, way lower than a guy getting into a tank and completely decimating the same way. Same with helicopters (though not as bad as tanks). My point is the average person can't handle a jet effectively enough to do that (I'm guessing lower than 90% of BF4's player base). The average person kills themselves more often than actually doing anything to the enemy. That means it takes a lot more effort into being effective at using a jet, and just because someone has learned how to be effective at something doesn't make it too strong. So as you proposed making it easier for people to kill jets, and at the same time increasing the re-spawn times means the average person is even less effective, and on top of that they don't get to use it as much anymore. So now not only would the average person not have any chance at flying a jet because they're so easy to be killed by others on the ground (which they can't really attack to begin with. Accept the mobile AA which most have problems with as it is), and on top of that they can't get back in again for a longer amount of time to practice. That might sound fair to the small minority that is very skilled with jets who knows what they're doing, but not to the average player trying to fly a jet.

My next point: Just because someone put time an effort into becoming effective at using a jet does that mean they should be punished for it? It's not like they're just mindlessly running around wreaking havoc on the enemy just by pressing a single button. Jets have to be one of the hardest/most complicated things to control in BF4. The guy in the jet has spent a lot of time learning how to do that well, just because he did, does that mean he should be punished for it? I don't think that's fair at all as the same could be said for any other aspect of the game, and no one would agree. for example: If someone becomes really, really good at infantry (on lets say an infantry only game mode) making it un-even should he be penalized by making enemy weapons more effective at killing him, or increasing his re spawn time after he dies because said person is too good? I don't think anyone would be for that. I know HVT is a soft version of this, but it effects everyone equally, even jets. I know for a fact as this happens to me in jets, and when it does I have to retreat to my base, or I get an abundance of missiles pointed at me all the suddenly that don't like I'm alive.

Also, what about the guy in the mobile AA/with a stinger shooting at the jet. If they got super missiles for jets is it fair to the guy who spent all that time learning to use a jet well that some guy literally all he had to do is look in the air, press a button, and they kill them.I bet they would be pretty pissed off. Now how is the amount of effort and skill in any way equivalent to what the jet has to do compared to what the guy with the stinger/mobile AA has to do? You can't possibly say it's in any shape or form equal. I'm sure if you asked someone who doesn't play shooters often to try an kill a jet with one of these improved stinger missiles(or the current ones even), and then try to kill some one with a jet I bet it would take a couple of weeks at most for the stinger, and many, many months (if ever) for them to get that jet kill.

All in all I think you're focusing on the jet savvy minority to make your judgement on jets as a whole, which believe you me, there is a lot more unskilled pilots than skilled ones out there, and it's not reasonable to judge something only by at the best of it.

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Tuesday, August 26th 2014, 7:42pm

@Natsu

A comment as someone who writes a lot for his profession: succinctness is the most powerful tool of the writer. It's very easy to lose otherwise interested people because of length and verbosity. Include just sufficient information and substantiation to your points, and no more. Make sentences efficient and compact.

To be honest, your posts are too long even for the level of discourse on Symthic. Which is a shame since you make some interesting arguments even if I don't agree with them.

As to the content of your post:

Frankly I think you have a twisted view of just how much impact a single air vehicle should have on the course of the match. The AH should quite simply not, emphatically not I might add, be the center point of any battle with a large number of assets being devoted to taking it out.

As it stands, no single asset in the game, NOT MBTs, not the attack jet, not the MAA, not the AH requires a concerted "team wide" effort to take out unless there is a massive skill disparity. An average tanker can be countered by 2-3 average engineers for eg. A single engineer with laser targeting support can take out an MBT with rep monkey just fine.

I hate to bring in realism to a discussion about an arcade game, but your expectation of what attack helos are/can do is an entirely personal fantasy that has little bearing with what everyone else things they are, or what they do in reality. AHs cannot do gun/strafing guns in the presence of heavy/radar controlled AAA (modeled by the MAAs) or MANPADS (modeled by Igla and Stinger). Rather they have to use terrain, maneuver and weapons range to do their job - not all that far off from the performance of the AH in BF4.

I view the AH as an aerial hard counter to the MAA as well as a stand off weapon to prevent tanks and IFVs from pushing flags. Those are powerful capabilities!

Without making vehicles stronger, much stronger in fact, having long respawn times merely heavily penalizes teams that have newer/learning players, or merely bad opportunistic players that say, grab a tank merely to have something protected to get onto a flag radius to fight on foot. Much longer vehicle respawn times makes Jihads more powerful as well since making transports rare would make the game insufferable.

There are a couple of servers my group of friends play on that have 400% vehicle respawn delays. All it does is emphasize the impact of bad luck and give surviving vehicles an extended infantry raping window. Instant vehicle spawns likewise suck.

This post has been edited 3 times, last edit by "tankmayvin" (Aug 26th 2014, 8:57pm)


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20

Tuesday, August 26th 2014, 7:58pm

JSLICE20 You seem to have some severe hatred of jets I have noticed =p One thing I have noticed with all your proposed balancing to jets seems to be you're missing ease of use for jets. Yes jets can wreck shop if used properly, but on average how many people can use them effectively enough to do that? I bet it's way, way lower than a guy getting into a tank and completely decimating the same way. Same with helicopters (though not as bad as tanks). My point is the average person can't handle a jet effectively enough to do that (I'm guessing lower than 90% of BF4's player base). The average person kills themselves more often than actually doing anything to the enemy. That means it takes a lot more effort into being effective at using a jet, and just because someone has learned how to be effective at something doesn't make it too strong. So as you proposed making it easier for people to kill jets, and at the same time increasing the re-spawn times means the average person is even less effective, and on top of that they don't get to use it as much anymore. So now not only would the average person not have any chance at flying a jet because they're so easy to be killed by others on the ground (which they can't really attack to begin with. Accept the mobile AA which most have problems with as it is), and on top of that they can't get back in again for a longer amount of time to practice. That might sound fair to the small minority that is very skilled with jets who knows what they're doing, but not to the average player trying to fly a jet.

My next point: Just because someone put time an effort into becoming effective at using a jet does that mean they should be punished for it? It's not like they're just mindlessly running around wreaking havoc on the enemy just by pressing a single button. Jets have to be one of the hardest/most complicated things to control in BF4. The guy in the jet has spent a lot of time learning how to do that well, just because he did, does that mean he should be punished for it? I don't think that's fair at all as the same could be said for any other aspect of the game, and no one would agree. for example: If someone becomes really, really good at infantry (on lets say an infantry only game mode) making it un-even should he be penalized by making enemy weapons more effective at killing him, or increasing his re spawn time after he dies because said person is too good? I don't think anyone would be for that. I know HVT is a soft version of this, but it effects everyone equally, even jets. I know for a fact as this happens to me in jets, and when it does I have to retreat to my base, or I get an abundance of missiles pointed at me all the suddenly that don't like I'm alive.

Also, what about the guy in the mobile AA/with a stinger shooting at the jet. If they got super missiles for jets is it fair to the guy who spent all that time learning to use a jet well that some guy literally all he had to do is look in the air, press a button, and they kill them.I bet they would be pretty pissed off. Now how is the amount of effort and skill in any way equivalent to what the jet has to do compared to what the guy with the stinger/mobile AA has to do? You can't possibly say it's in any shape or form equal. I'm sure if you asked someone who doesn't play shooters often to try an kill a jet with one of these improved stinger missiles(or the current ones even), and then try to kill some one with a jet I bet it would take a couple of weeks at most for the stinger, and many, many months (if ever) for them to get that jet kill.

All in all I think you're focusing on the jet savvy minority to make your judgement on jets as a whole, which believe you me, there is a lot more unskilled pilots than skilled ones out there, and it's not reasonable to judge something only by at the best of it.

Three points.

- LGMs are part of the easiest to use weapon family in the game. They are also the single most powerful all aspect anti-tank weapon. It's staying alive in the jet with other jets in the air that is the only substantial challenge.

- The bar for really dominating in a tank is much higher than you think. The fact that you worded your statement as a supposition sorta suggests you don't know what you're talking about.

- Jets are intrinsically "hard" because they move "fast" (by BF standards) and so you need to be fast and relatively smooth on the inputs and decent at "pixel aiming" to line up attacks. There is simply no way to make them "easier" without making the weapons stupidly OP. No one in their right mind wants the F15/SU-30/SU-34 from BF2 back.

@JSLICE20

I have to agree with him that infantry don't need a way to deal with jets. Infantry need tools to counter things that they have to fight, and by and large infantry never fight with jets. Sometimes you'll see rocket strafing or JDAMs on infantry but that's been rare in my experience. And they tend to focus on the armour anyway.

Unless jets get some magical buff where they can start crushing infantry regularly, I don't see the problem. The IGLA isn't that useless against jets providing the jets CM have been drawn.