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Nick 30075

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Friday, March 14th 2014, 2:25am

Field Upgrade Balance

Okay, this is a rather heated topic, so I'm going to preface this with "keep calm, guys." That hasn't been what has happened in the past.


This is the general perk tree balance thread. I'm going to toss up a poll every few days for each perk tree, see what should be done with them. So let's start, but again, keep it civil, I know there are people who are really sensitive about this, but try to be sensible, guys.


For clarification, some of what is below is taken from other members.

Defensive perk:
Body Armor is ridiculous. It's the same thing as BC2 Magnum Ammo, in a nutshell (actually, I'd say that it's even more ridiculous because the increase in BTK is larger relative to the normal BTK). It functions both on offense (by winning 1v1s) and on defense (by keeping you alive). Body Armor by itself is probably better than any other perk tree at 4/4 (Anti-Tank aside). That said, removing it completely would ruin the best perk. I feel as though if Body Armor was to be moved down the tree, Defensive would not lose its identity as a perk tree and it would not be like starting with a tier 4 perk from the start. Cover starting it off would maintain identity pretty well. Personally, I don't use it on any class (sitting on a Medkit does the same thing and I'm never shooting people in the face from close enough for it to matter as any other class), but a lot of people call Body Armor OP.

Offensive perk:
This set is really well-balanced, in my opinion. Reduced Fall is horrendously bad and doesn't feel like an appropriate end-skill. Maybe replace it with Magnum Ammunition (bullets penetrate more easily)? It seems like the best-balanced set right now, to me.

Shadow:
Reduced Fall is again really weak. Since Shadow is for flanking and pressure, perhaps Quick Spawn? Reduces spawn timer by 1 second. Relevant in fast-paced combat situations. I'm not sure, it could honestly stay how it is now and I think it'd be fine.

Combat Medic:
I use Combat Medic right now. I really like it, even as someone who doesn't run Defibs. That said, Medical Unit is rather bad. Assaults don't drive vehicles; it doesn't make much sense. Perhaps a new Tier 4 skill that grants greater heal rate? Or increases radius while keeping enemies from using them?

Grenadier:
Fine as is, the flavor is there and I can't think of a reasonable change. Increased explosive damage would just be bad.

Anti-Tank:
You need to be running mines to be able to use two of the perks. Most engineers don't and so it's a waste for them. I feel like changing it a little would work.
Tier 1: Deployed Explosives
Tier 2: (Explosive Inventory) Rocket and Mine inventory increased
Tier 3: Flak
Tier 4: (Demolitions) Direct hit explosive damage +10%

Mechanic:
I have not used Mechanic before, someone needs to help me here. Repair Unit seems underwhelming; I think it should act as a free Maintenance perk for your tank plus those around you (I don't know if it does already, I've never used it).

Indirect Fire:
You have twice as many ammo crates and you need them to be able to spam your explosives. What use could you possibly have for 50% more than infinity? Replace with Flak. Would make players more resilient to anything ranged that could disrupt their mortaring.

Perimeter Defense:
Again, I don't know what to do here. Can one of the Support wizards give me some help (Viper, maybe)? Adding Advanced Spot here (over Ammo) may be worthwhile.

Spec Ops:
I love it as-is, it's perfect for flanking. My favorite perk tree in the game.

Sniper:
Advanced Spot at 45% seems silly and arbitrary. I feel like it should permit a "spotter" role. I would move it to the front and push the others down a single tier while increasing the spot time to +75% and granting you +10 points on a spot assist. Then maybe your average functionally-afk recon would do something constructive.
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This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "Nick 30075" (Mar 14th 2014, 3:48am)


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Friday, March 14th 2014, 2:41am

Honestly, if all the other perks were buffed to be as good as the defensive perk, this game would basically become an RPG-Shooter because the benefits would have to be on extreme levels. thats how OP body armor is. Body armor just needs to be removed or nerfed, as well as being moved to the last unlock. In addition, there should be some sort of visual way of telling if someone has body armor on or not.

EDIT: Body armor could be moved to rank 3, and have no effect on slug shotguns, and Flak will be the new first rank. This would be perfect as there is so much grenade, lvg, airburst, noobtube, claymore, explosion etc spam in this game, it would be very useful.

EDIT 2: Alternatively, body armor could remain the same vs slugs, and slug damage be buffed to 108 up close.

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "Afromelon" (Mar 14th 2014, 2:57am)


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Friday, March 14th 2014, 3:07am

From an infantry vs infantry standpoint it's unbalanced. The other perks have way less value than Defensive, because body armor is too big of a deal. I think reducing lethal grenade inventory to 1 for all grenades would give a little more value to the offensive tree. If you want multiple grenades you should have to use that field upgrade.

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Friday, March 14th 2014, 3:08am

Check the numbers on body armour, it's only relevant at very specific ranges. Otherwise it does nothing.

Moving powerful perks DOWN the tree is stupid. You always want the Defining perks in the first level or two, otherwise you're defeating the point of the player making a choice. You're adding a stong slipperly-slope mechanic to the already winning squads.

Reduced fall is pointless, as Incarnate has demonstrated elsewhere, the very moment you can take damage from falling, is the moment you can use the parachute to avoid that damage. So long as you can press spacebar, reduced fall is worthless.

BF4 Field Upgrade Tweaks by Incarnate - Google Drive

^-- Incarnates take on field upgrade balance.

I feel as if your list is born from ignorance, you don't actually know how these function, or the maths behind them. labbys math on Defensive would drastically change your suggestions. It's only actually relevant vs buckshot and bolt actions, primarily. A medkit is a stronger defensive tool than the defensive perk.

I feel that listing all the issues would take too much time to adequately explain over text, come to TS and I'll happily explain how these field upgrades actually work.

Quoted from "J0hn-Stuart-Mill"


Nick 30075

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Friday, March 14th 2014, 3:28am

I'm on my laptop for the week so my mic is crap, I'd join otherwise. Toss me an invite this weekend when I'm on my desktop.


As for Defensive, for maps with mostly CQB, it's quite useful. The engagement range over which Body Armor is good is exactly the same as the engagement range over which firefights happen. Toss in that it makes your medkits more effective and I think it's a little bit over the top, not gamebreaking though (I actually thought Magnum in BC2 wasn't bad, I ran Body Armor then as a metagame call and it worked perfectly). Like I said in my post, I don't actually use it. On anything, I don't think.

I feel like field upgrades should be something you work for, like a goal of sorts. It'd be like starting off unlocks and getting the worst/useless ones last. There's no motivation to keep your squad score up if you already have the good stuff. Once you have the one perk that matters, the average player can stop caring as their goal is met. The defining perks should be what you work towards.

I just view field upgrades as a "goal" rather than something you always have by default. So that's just a difference in viewpoints, probably partially influenced by some fiddling with possible unlock structures for other games (and some Dissidia 012 chat).

I put the "move down tier" option there because it's the one I've heard the most.

I agree with Incarnate's stuff, for the most part. I feel like there are a few things that aren't said that should be mentioned (for example, why are Assaults driving tanks?), but in general, yeah, good suggestions on that end.
Emperor Nick of the Cult of Defibrillation
Sith Deity of Thread-Killing


I'm basically just a degenerate weeb who doesn't post much nowadays.

I'm secretly Old Man Symthic

Siggy thingies


Gaming Stuff


Words of Wisdom (not really)

Quoted from "Blue Panda"

You're fedorable :love:

Quoted from "ToTheSun!"

I have the highest postcount. Nick doesn't count.

Quoted

23:44 Lt_Col_Jesus: I'm -
23:44 Lt_Col_Jesus: Okay
23:44 Lt_Col_Jesus: I'm stabbing everyone
23:44 Lt_Col_Jesus: Bye guys
23:44 Nick: *flips table*
23:44 Legion: Bye, happy stabbing
23:44 *** Lt_Col_Jesus quit (Quit: off to murder the public at large).

Quoted

10:41 LB: You just...reanimated Steve Jobs.
10:41 Dice: Well that would be unfortunate, I was just getting used to him being dead.

Quoted from "Pheozero"

... fuck. Damn you hindsight!

Quoted

23:58 Failure117: CAUSE IM FREEE
23:58 Nick: AS A BIIIIRD NOW
23:58 Failure117: FREEE OF NICK'S WORM RAPE

Quoted

ViperFTW: HEY LOOK
ViperFTW: AN ALIEN LASER FISH THE SIZE OF THE SUN
ViperFTW: I WANT TO SWAT IT WITH MY COMICLY LARGE SWORD
ViperFTW: WITH
ViperFTW: THIS
ViperFTW: AS
ViperFTW: MY
ViperFTW: FUUUUCKING SOUNDTRACK :DDDD
(the album in question)


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Friday, March 14th 2014, 3:45am

Just thought of this, a buff to the offensive tree....last perk makes it impossible for you to be counter-knifed. Take that, opness of the defensive perk!

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Friday, March 14th 2014, 4:15am

I agree there needs to be a rebalance.

I really don't have any reasonable ideas how.

Andreas

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Friday, March 14th 2014, 5:17am

Honestly, Body Armor is overrated. At close ranges, the difference in TTK is such that you'll both die anyway if you make all your shots. The automatic weapons that really get cheated with Body Armor are the high damage ones (34-25), because that ruins their point. They're still better at long range (5 shot kill as opposed to 7), but their short range potential is seriously harmed. The other weapons screwed over by Body Armor are the Bolt Actions (though body armor's effect on them is justified as far as I'm concerned), and shotgun pump slugs + either buckshot. In my opinion pump slugs should be a 1HK anywhere but to the legs, and should be a 1HK to the head at damage drop off. This is all around efficiency. Another place where Body Armor works: DMRs. This is the weapon class that body armor works most on. With the lower damage model, the SKS and QBU are turned into 4HKs with body armor. Otherwise, they're 3HKs at min and max damage, or 1 headshot and 1 body shot everywhere. If not for body armor, their damage would have to be nerfed to make them permanent 4hks, which would suck. Body Armor works for the DMRs.

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Friday, March 14th 2014, 5:19am

Defensive Armor: The Chicken Pox of BF4

Math.

unless your CQB maps are exclusively 8m and below, body armour isn't really doing much of anything. Also CQB combat maps = assault = medkit = defensive is doing even less than basically nothing.

Quoted from "J0hn-Stuart-Mill"


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Friday, March 14th 2014, 5:23am

Defensive Armor: The Chicken Pox of BF4

Math.

unless your CQB maps are exclusively 8m and below, body armour isn't really doing much of anything. Also CQB combat maps = assault = medkit = defensive is doing even less than basically nothing.

Isn't that what I was saying? ;(