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Thursday, February 6th 2014, 4:31am

I honestly don't find PDW's that bad

I think the true, ultimate problem is that Assault Rifles (and in turn, their very similar little brother, the carbine) are just too effective - which was/is my same argument on DMR's (though they were definitely far worse off). I always feel I'm giving up too much in versatility just to gain so little in close range. The PDW's are balanced pretty well in CQB, but the carbine is just more than use-able enough, that you never feel it's a fair trade.

So what do you do? buff PDW's even more in CQB? there's hardly any room to give there before considering them borderline overpowered

for instance, 90% of the talk of buffs to PDW's are essentially arguing to make them into carbines - not a better PDW

if I had to make a powerpoint slide:
--------------------- Effective Range ---------------------------
CQB -------------------- Medium ---------------------------Long
[---PDW---]
.........[-------Carbine----------]
.........[------------------AR-------------------]
.................................[----------DMR-------]

**just a rough sketch, but you get my argument

  • "revic_crew" started this thread

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Thursday, February 6th 2014, 4:50am

@Exryia the problem isn't with all the PDWs, for example the CZ3A1 already fills the niche of being the best CQB weapon in the game. But what about the UMP-9? It only shoots 700 rpm, lots of other guns like the M416, ACE 23, ACE 21, etc will beat it in close range, leaving the UMP-9 with no real specialty. Compared to something like the AK-5C it might have slightly better hip fire allowing it to compete up close, yet the better efficiency of the AK-5C at range is a much better trade-off. It's only a tiny hip fire advantage so why not make that advantage actually worth something by reducing the hip spread of the UMP-9 further?

UMP45 vs ACE 52, again UMP45 has slightly better hip fire but not enough to justify the ACE 52 destroying the UMP45 in almost every area.

And what about the PP-2000? Sure it's got 45 rounds but that doesn't count for much when everything else outclasses it, you might save time hip firing but the hip fire is still very poor for a PDW and not worth using outside of a few metres, which also happens to be the effective hip fire range of carbines. This is also including the laser sight on everything. Of course buffing the laser to have a 50% bonus like BF3 would make it overpowered compared to the other attachments in its slot, but what if the laser was moved to the barrel slot, so using it means sacrificing compensator/hbar/flash, but then giving you a 50% hip fire bonus? Just an idea...



"for instance, 90% of the talk of buffs to PDW's are essentially arguing to make them into carbines - not a better PDW"
If hip fire on PDWs is buffed they become a bit more useful as PDWs. You could increase moving spread on PDWs so it's higher than that of carbines/etc, but at the ranges where you'll be using the gun it doesn't really make a difference, the bit of extra spread on an AR is still accurate enough to strafe and shoot targets accurately.

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Thursday, February 6th 2014, 5:14am

Laser sight is weaker in BF4, which makes the PDW's hipfire advantage less prominent. Also, in BF3 PDW's were practically the only weapons to use laser sights, everything else used heavy barrel. In BF4 everyone uses laser sights.

Also, in BF3 PDW's ADS spread when moving didn't increase, at all compared to standing ADS spread. In BF4 their standing ADS spread is slightly better (0.5 -> 0.4) but their moving spread is much worse. (0.5 -> 0.8 ) With the way moving ADS spread is calculated, most carbines actually have better moving ADS spread than PDW's, especially when you take the higher ADS movement speed of most PDW's into account.
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This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Labby" (Feb 6th 2014, 5:28am)


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Thursday, February 6th 2014, 6:04am

well what argument are you trying to make? PDW's as a weapon class or each individual PDW?

your title and opening statement imply a discussion of PDW's as a whole - yet now you're responding for the latter

then the last two paragraphs you just go back and argue the same point..............
@Exryia the problem isn't with all the PDWs, for example the CZ3A1 already fills the niche of being the best CQB weapon in the game. But what about the UMP-9? It only shoots 700 rpm, lots of other guns like the M416, ACE 23, ACE 21, etc will beat it in close range, leaving the UMP-9 with no real specialty. Compared to something like the AK-5C it might have slightly better hip fire allowing it to compete up close, yet the better efficiency of the AK-5C at range is a much better trade-off. It's only a tiny hip fire advantage so why not make that advantage actually worth something by reducing the hip spread of the UMP-9 further?

UMP45 vs ACE 52, again UMP45 has slightly better hip fire but not enough to justify the ACE 52 destroying the UMP45 in almost every area.

And what about the PP-2000? Sure it's got 45 rounds but that doesn't count for much when everything else outclasses it, you might save time hip firing but the hip fire is still very poor for a PDW and not worth using outside of a few metres, which also happens to be the effective hip fire range of carbines. This is also including the laser sight on everything. Of course buffing the laser to have a 50% bonus like BF3 would make it overpowered compared to the other attachments in its slot, but what if the laser was moved to the barrel slot, so using it means sacrificing compensator/hbar/flash, but then giving you a 50% hip fire bonus? Just an idea...



"for instance, 90% of the talk of buffs to PDW's are essentially arguing to make them into carbines - not a better PDW"
If hip fire on PDWs is buffed they become a bit more useful as PDWs. You could increase moving spread on PDWs so it's higher than that of carbines/etc, but at the ranges where you'll be using the gun it doesn't really make a difference, the bit of extra spread on an AR is still accurate enough to strafe and shoot targets accurately.

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Thursday, February 6th 2014, 6:09am

If BF4 weapons balanced like Call of Duty weapons, then this would be an easier issue to tackle. Just make you move faster with PDW's and give them a faster recovery time (time it takes to bring a weapon back to aiming after doing an action). However, I don't think that can be accomplished here.

I'm personally of a mind that PDW's aren't very underpowered at all. The CZ-3A1 and AS-Val are freakin' monsters that eat people and laugh in the face of reload time. The MX4 and UMP-45 are also very good, too. And the high-capacity MP7, P90, and CBJ-MS are all nice alternatives to LMG's. But once you get to the ones with a lower fire rate, that's the real issue. Those guns are just beyond useless, as their rate of fire is too low for close quarters, making the hipfire accuracy irrelevant. Also, their terrible spread makes them bad and anything beyond that. Only the UMP-9 can be considered really good, because its recoil is virtually nonexistent.

So the low RPM PDW's seem to suffer from the same issue as BF3's low RPM Assault Rifle's. What they need is either a universal recoil decrease, or even better, a universal ADS spread buff along with a spread increase buff to make them better at longer ranges.

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Thursday, February 6th 2014, 6:14am

@revic_crew

Really, it's not an unreasonable request. If -- to use Exyia's little slider scale -- you made the PDW's effective range a little bit bigger (i.e. increase the min. damage for weapons like the CBJ-MS and the PP2000 [which irl is made to fire a special armor-piercing 9mm round] from 12.1 to 14, making for an 8 shot kill regardless of ARMOR), it'd still give the AR's and carbines the edge at range, but the PDW's wouldn't be absolutely stomped, either.

Furthermore, I think that their moving ADS accuracy should be increased. Like Labby said, the increase from .5 in BF3 to .8 (.7 with the PDR) in BF4 is certainly a big difference in close-quarters performance, given that all of the carbines match and even surpass that level of accuracy. It doesn't help that more than half of the PDWs don't have an underbarrel attachment slot, so guns like the PP2000 and P90 can't take advantage of the ERGO and Vertical Foregrips.

IMO, not only do I hope that they get some sort of buff to give people a reason to use them over the Carbines, I also hope that they add some other interesting PDWs like the one Knight's Armament designed back on '06:



Sure, it'll probably need a name change, but from what I understand its proprietary 6x35mm cartridge performs similarly to the 5.56mm NATO cartridge out to 300m with a 10" barrel. Can you say "PDR with an underbarrel attachment slot?" I'll take it with a bag of chips.
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Thursday, February 6th 2014, 6:23am

Thing with lower ROF weapons is that they already have pretty low recoil, reducing it even more wouldn't really matter that much. Perhaps they should have maybe a longer damage drop off, or a higher damage (like 30) that would extend their 4-shot kill range further than high ROF weapons. As for low ROF PDWs, what would be the best way to balance them then, if not for a hip fire buff?

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Thursday, February 6th 2014, 6:30am

People underestimate hipfire, that's the main issue of PDWs. Two minor issues are spread inc and ADS moving spread. I should try out the PP2000.
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Thursday, February 6th 2014, 10:09am

@revic_crew

Really, it's not an unreasonable request. If -- to use Exyia's little slider scale -- you made the PDW's effective range a little bit bigger (i.e. increase the min. damage for weapons like the CBJ-MS and the PP2000 [which irl is made to fire a special armor-piercing 9mm round] from 12.1 to 14, making for an 8 shot kill regardless of ARMOR), it'd still give the AR's and carbines the edge at range, but the PDW's wouldn't be absolutely stomped, either.

Furthermore, I think that their moving ADS accuracy should be increased. Like Labby said, the increase from .5 in BF3 to .8 (.7 with the PDR) in BF4 is certainly a big difference in close-quarters performance, given that all of the carbines match and even surpass that level of accuracy. It doesn't help that more than half of the PDWs don't have an underbarrel attachment slot, so guns like the PP2000 and P90 can't take advantage of the ERGO and Vertical Foregrips.

IMO, not only do I hope that they get some sort of buff to give people a reason to use them over the Carbines, I also hope that they add some other interesting PDWs like the one Knight's Armament designed back on '06:



Sure, it'll probably need a name change, but from what I understand its proprietary 6x35mm cartridge performs similarly to the 5.56mm NATO cartridge out to 300m with a 10" barrel. Can you say "PDR with an underbarrel attachment slot?" I'll take it with a bag of chips.

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Thursday, February 6th 2014, 10:38am

I think improving their hipfire to levels where they can beat ARs an Carbines at ~10m without having to ADS would make people hate the AS VAL, and would make PDWS the Sniper Rifles of close quarters.


Carbines are meant to be average at everything, so giving PDWs substantally increased hipfire accuracy (both standing and moving) would be enough. They're PDWS, DO NOT buff their midrange, just make them scary even to someone with an MTAR.