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Pepin the Short

Sexy (Legal) Secretary

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Friday, January 17th 2014, 6:00pm

The issue of realism aside, random spread is a vital development tool that forces different weapons and classes of weapons into the role for which they are intended. If any element that can be 'mitigated through player skill' is used to achieve this end, then it doesn't really do it's job. Without spread, there would be nothing stopping a well-practiced LMG user from using the M240B as a PDW, nothing stopping a practiced PDW user from using the P90 as a DMR.

If you want a game that does not have random spread, then you want a game with far fewer weapons and far less nuance in infantry gameplay. There would effectively be no point in having anything more than one pistol, one DMR, one assault rifle, and one LMG. All the differences that would create distinction between weapons within these classifications would disappear, because they could be entirely 'mitigated through player skill.' There would be a demonstrably superior weapon, and there would therefore be no reason to use any of the others.

Do not tell me why spread is a bad thing, tell me what you can do to force players to use certain weapons for certain roles. Recoil, velocity, and damage merely encourage them, as the effects of all these things can be 'mitigated through player skill.' If you want to force players into the framework that you envision for the game, then you need to create effects that are beyond the control of the players.

  • "Katana67" started this thread

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Friday, January 17th 2014, 6:01pm

You have no idea what the you are talking about, apply some basic trigonometry and see how barely limiting spread is for the initial shot, then acknowledge the fact that limiting burst length vs range is a basic weapon skill and weapon balancing is all dildos when you have 0 hipfire spread.

Again, I'm not talking about anything to do with hipfire spread. ADS spread is what I'm talking about, (i.e. where your reticle is pointed versus where your rounds land downrange).


Your racism against sniping pleases me...

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13

Friday, January 17th 2014, 6:04pm

Proposal - Get rid of "random spread" entirely.
[Aristocrat's Shoes]
TLDR -
Teamwork is where players function by themselves, but their effectiveness is multiplied when they work together. Not a checklist of "did we bring a healer so we can start playing?"

  • "Katana67" started this thread

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14

Friday, January 17th 2014, 6:04pm

The issue of realism aside, random spread is a vital development tool that forces different weapons and classes of weapons into the role for which they are intended. If any element can be 'mitigated through player skill' is used to achieve this end, then it doesn't really do it's job. Without spread, there would be nothing stopping a well-practiced LMG user from using the M240B as a PDW, nothing stopping a practiced PDW user from using the P90 as a DMR.

If you want a game that does not have random spread, then you want a game with far fewer weapons and far less nuance in infantry gameplay. There would effectively be no point in having anything more than one pistol, one DMR, one assault rifle, and one LMG. All the differences that would create distinction between weapons within these classifications would disappear, because they could be entirely 'mitigated through player skill.' There would be a demonstrably superior weapon, and there would therefore be no reason to use any of the others.

Do not tell me why spread is a bad thing, tell me what you can do to force players to use certain weapons for certain roles. Recoil, velocity, and damage merely encourage them, as the effects of all these things can be 'mitigated through player skill.' If you want to force players into the framework that you envision for the game, then you need to create effects that are beyond the control of the players.
I can see this isn't really going anywhere, as most people here seem pretty rooted in the "random spread" paradigm which is responsible for this site's analysis.

However, again. You can make weapons different by having variations in recoil severity, round dropoff, damage at range, magazine capacity, [insert any of the myriad ways in which weapons can be differentiated].

I can think of one thing stopping a PDW user from using a P90 as a DMR, damage. Damage at range. Round velocity (and overall range).

Accuracy is the faculty of the player, not nebulous and intangible variables.


Your racism against sniping pleases me...

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15

Friday, January 17th 2014, 6:04pm

Point being, there are other ways of making weapons different. Rather than nebulous "spread" variables.
Interesting thread, I sort of agree. But to completely convince me, you need to give some examples of how the different guns can be balanced to perform the different roles they were designed to. Randomness is a fundamental aspect of many things. Skill-based games of all kinds are about using your personal abilities to overcome the limitations (wether brought about by randomness or other factors) in order to achieve a goal or perform a given task. I don't think removing randomness entirely would improve much...
Roses are red, violets are blue, "They don't think it be like it is, but it do."

  • "Katana67" started this thread

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16

Friday, January 17th 2014, 6:05pm

Proposal - Get rid of "random spread" entirely.

Fair enough, I'll amend that to specify ADS spread. Although the rest of my post does that just as well.


Your racism against sniping pleases me...

Sheepnub

I pity the wool

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Friday, January 17th 2014, 6:06pm

I find it unfair that I have to control my gun to make it shoot accurately. I wish to mindlessly go full-auto so I don't over-pressurize my brain when trying to hit the guy 80 meter away. Let's make a topic on a website that in no way has the capability to change anything in the game, in the hope that they agree and change it to make the game easier

It would also be a really cool idea to grant special upgrades to people that get more than x-amount of kills in a row. I think a controllable gunship with automatic .50cals with splash damage, and an automatic rocket-system, would be a good upgrade.
"I put aside a few sceptics, the types of decency in the history of philosophy: the rest haven't the slightest conception of intellectual integrity."
Friedrich Nietzsche


Best of epic quotes :D

Spoiler Spoiler

Just realized it's 4/20 tomorrow


Thanks for the heads up!
*Logs out of Symthic in preparation*

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

>littlebird passanger, semi-auto frag rounds
>gunship OP

Meanwhile at DICE-headquarters during BF4's release:

I'm pretty sure there's a massive post-it on every desk "DON'T FUCKING TOUCH ANYTHING THAT IS ACTUALLY DOING WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE DOING"

UCAV:
"Hey guys remember how stupid prenerf mav was?"

"Lets add c4 to it."

The World Champion went to China once.

They called me a Gweilo.

So I kicked a big fucking hole in their wall and let all the Mongolians in.

just thought I'd share.


The thought of Assaults running out of ACE 23 rounds mid firefight, Engineers facing the rear of an unaware MBT with no rockets left, Recons unable to...Whatever the fuck they do. These are the things that keep me up at night ;(


About hunturk:
I don't know what's funnier, the video itself of the fact that an unlisted video has more views than most of your normal videos :P

...


You just live to hit people upside the noggin with a Math Bomb, don't you?

[context] Maybe it's the UK's overly aggressive porn filter at work. After all, it does have the word "monkey" in it and monkeys have been known to have sex so...


Previously, at DICE HQ:
"Ok guys, the password is "epic dream worlds"; everyone take a letter and do your best to turn it into into something random that we can put into a picture!"


I assume a functional game (BF4) also.

Aww!
*pinches cheeks*
So cute!


But but but

He's a Youtuber ;(

There's no way he doesn't know what he's talking about


  • "Katana67" started this thread

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18

Friday, January 17th 2014, 6:08pm

Point being, there are other ways of making weapons different. Rather than nebulous "spread" variables.
Interesting thread, I sort of agree. But to completely convince me, you need to give some examples of how the different guns can be balanced to perform the different roles they were designed to. Randomness is a fundamental aspect of many things. Skill-based games of all kinds are about using your personal abilities to overcome the limitations (wether brought about by randomness or other factors) in order to achieve a goal or perform a given task. I don't think removing randomness entirely would improve much...

I did that in the OP, I had hoped. But I'll try my best.

Recoil. Certain weapons recoil more, 5.56x45 vs. 7.62x51 NATO. Recoil variance allows for players to mitigate (not eliminate) recoil of different weapons. So, an LMG would recoil more than a PDW, thus disallowing for LMG's to be used as PDWs. PDWs would recoil less at the expense of a weaker damage model and a lower overall range.

Plus all of the other variables listed.

Succinctly, I just want the reticle to follow down-range dispersion.


Your racism against sniping pleases me...

  • "Katana67" started this thread

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19

Friday, January 17th 2014, 6:09pm

I find it unfair that I have to control my gun to make it shoot accurately. I wish to mindlessly go full-auto so I don't over-pressurize my brain when trying to hit the guy 80 meter away. Let's make a topic on a website that in no way has the capability to change anything in the game, in the hope that they agree and change it to make the game easier

It would also be a really cool idea to grant special upgrades to people that get more than x-amount of kills in a row. I think a controllable gunship with automatic .50cals with splash damage, and an automatic rocket-system, would be a good upgrade.

Again, not what I'm asserting in the slightest. I'm not sure folks are actually reading the OP. There are other ways in which downrange dispersion is varied, I'm merely suggesting that "random spread" is unnecessary when we've got things like recoil, bullet drop, bullet velocity, etc. which determine downrange dispersion. Adding a vague "variable" of random spread on top of that doesn't make any sense.


Your racism against sniping pleases me...

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Friday, January 17th 2014, 6:10pm

As much as I hate random spread and wish it could be gone, I can't see how it would be feasible unless the game's sandbox was overhauled entirely. As some have brought up, that means that all weapons would have pinpoint hipfire accuracy, making bullpups/PDW's useless compared to other weapons.

The only way that issue could be alleviated is if there was a very visible mobility system like we see in Call of Duty. That is, LMG's and sniper rifles move slower, bring their weapon up slower after sprinting, but PDW's move faster and recover sooner after sprinting. But then that would heavily nerf the already difficult to use weapon classes, so it'd do more harm than good.

Or perhaps the ability to have pinpoint hipfire can be granted if one has a laser sight attached, at the cost of having no crosshairs, like in Crysis.

Although the removal of random ADS spread is something that could be theoretically done in the current sandbox. The only factor in accuracy would then be recoil.