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Aenonar

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Thursday, August 29th 2013, 12:23pm

I hate how the fighter jets can change the caliber for there main gun. As someone that likes realism i want the vehicles to be portrayed as having the correct caliber for there vehicles. Like the tunguska hud says its using 20mm rounds but irl no modernish russian vehicles use anything less than 30mm.

I really wonder how fighter jets are going to work out... No rocket pods, 1 guided missile, 3 AA missiles, 3 gun calibers.... Oddly enough....

Sounds like you have to choose between AA or ground guided missile and air vs ground cannon... If it's anything like BF3 the AA missiles will be rubbish and guided missile also rubbish, so your remaining choice would be bad vs air or bad vs ground gun ;>

Still missing the normal bombs... Sure modern jets don't really have rocket pods, but they sure have normal bombs... -.-'


I know you're squarely in the anti lock on camp Aenonar but at least as far as the effectiveness is concerned I think the AA and AG missiles will be much more effective this time around. In the air we've likely got the increased CM reload time, limited CM's and the possibility of the removal of below radar for jets. Not to mentioned that jets and MAA will have longer range missiles to choose from as well.

On the ground the CM reload and limited ammo will factor in along with the fact that there is a new form of smoke that seems to prevent critical damage but doesn't actually spoof missiles or break locks. The smoke visually conceals you and should be effective against wire/TV missiles though.

I'm hoping reactive armor is gone this time around or that the jet's AGM goes through it too.

I'm against anything that just goes beep-beep-i win ;>

There's supposedly AA missiles that needs a constant aim to hit, which has the potential to be perfect since flying skill becomes really important. Also one of the old type that is homing on it's own, but less chance to hit which has a good chance of being the same failure as in BF3. Dunno about the third...

They have the potential to be ok but all this with limited CM and Dice never being able to sort it out in BF3.. Well....

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(14:06:57) Riesig: I should stop now. People might get sig material again

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Thursday, August 29th 2013, 1:09pm

Zuni rocket Mobile AA spending his life ignoring air targets to kill infantry sounds like a match made in hell.

rainkloud

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23

Friday, August 30th 2013, 3:18am






I'm against anything that just goes beep-beep-i win ;>

There's supposedly AA missiles that needs a constant aim to hit, which has the potential to be perfect since flying skill becomes really important. Also one of the old type that is homing on it's own, but less chance to hit which has a good chance of being the same failure as in BF3. Dunno about the third...

They have the potential to be ok but all this with limited CM and Dice never being able to sort it out in BF3.. Well....



Sooooo what you're really saying is you're against is this.

The whole missile game wasn't really thought through in BF3. But the fact they've included so many more missiles tells me they've really looked in depth to find a system that provides a definite advantage for using missiles in certain situations and ranges and using guns in others. I don't think the hold on lock missiles will raise the skill bar that much but if it makes people more comfortable then all the better. The skill of using lock on weapons effectively is in obtaining the proper positioning and then firing at the precise time. The reality is that a lot of the same skills transfer over to gunning. It's not so much the aim that's important but rather positioning yourself to be able to fire and hit.
Zuni rocket Mobile AA spending his life ignoring air targets to kill infantry sounds like a match made in hell.
Yeah it's a concern but it's a weapon that has a lot of potentially good synergy with the AA seeing as it gets positioned in much the same area that you'd put artillery.

Toshiro

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Friday, August 30th 2013, 3:45am

I'm agreeing with with Aen right now. I hate Stiglas and to a lesser extent javelins. It just is so much more rewarding to shoot down that Attack Heli making a strafing run on you while using the RPG. the same goes for tanks. If you can use the terrain to get behind and disable them, its pretty awesome.
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This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Toshiro" (Aug 30th 2013, 4:56am)


rainkloud

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Friday, August 30th 2013, 4:49am

It really depends on your style of play. If you value style and personal redemption then firing rpgs at helos is definitely the way to go. It will get you killed 9/10 times but then again helping your team obviously isn't your priority if you're using an S2S weapon instead of an S2A.

For me it's about being as efficient on the battlefield as possible so that I can make an impact on the team. If the lock on weapon causes the enemy to flare/smoke making them vulnerable then even if I don't get the kill I've still made a big contribution. In BF4 this will be all the more critical with longer CM reloads.

I think the misconception is that people only use one or the other. The reality is that I'll use the lock on weapon where it is most efficient and then switch to the manual weapon when it's at its most opportune. When I fly, I can ride with an AGM. I can get a couple of hits in the pubs until people realize what's going on and then switch to smoke. After that I have to resort to dive bombing where I literally lay the missile on top of some poor tank. That works until they start smoking immediately upon hearing me lock. After that I have to resort to rockets (I play with no doritos so the thermal scope on the AGM is muy bueno). But in any of those scenarios I still always have to switch to guns to finish them off. And while doing a straight strafing run against a tank is no great feat of aiming, doing so while dodging AA and after firing your AGM and having mere seconds before hitting the ground, is.

Toshiro

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Friday, August 30th 2013, 5:00am

@rainkloud

That's assuming that the enemy is far above the ground, and you (destroyer of helis) aren't using cover wisely. The easiest way to do it is to entice them to get low enough (using cover). Once you've mastered the speed/drop of the RPG versus the speed of the heli, it's just a matter of aim.
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Darktan13

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Friday, August 30th 2013, 5:41am

I'm agreeing with with Aen right now. I hate Stiglas and to a lesser extent javelins. It just is so much more rewarding to shoot down that Attack Heli making a strafing run on you while using the RPG.


Same points, so no more rewarding. :P

As rainkloud said, you don't have to personally kill everything, or anything in order to be a, or even the, reason for it's demise. If you are managing to RPG an attack heli in BF3, the attack heli is almost certainly playing seriously 'incorrectly'

why do you hate stiglas and javelins? If you think they're skill-less, I made a post recently on that -

No, Lock-on weapons are not "skill-less" they are pretty skill intensive weapons, they just require skills that aren't recoil control / aim ( purely mechanical skills ). heatseekers rely on timing of countermeasures, timing of firing, terrain ,distance, use of cover, the reload timers of the countermeasures and weapon, the available assistance in the area from other sources of lock-ons, height, and probably some stuff I forgot :D

Not to say that shooting stuff doesn't also require use of terrain or cover and distance, but it requires DIFFERENT use of terrain and cover and distance, and managing all of these things, including both those of shooting and of lock-ons does require a great degree of skill, if I were to face off with a particularly skilled, say, scout pilot, ( for example, widgitybear or labby ) I would lose in a heatseeker only battle over the same terrain using the same helis, IF these weapons were skill-less, I would have an equal chance of winning against these opponents, and it's simply not true, they would destroy me almost certainly every time.


The beeping is irritating sometimes I guess, but that's no reason to want them removed. Not everything has to be a weapon / not every weapon should be focused on direct kills - Mines for example, sure they can kill stuff, and sometimes that happens, BUT using them in the most effective manner actually reduces their chance to kill things, the goal is instead to delay the opposing ground vehicles, to control their movement - how and where they engage your team. ( A large spaced out set of mines is MUCH easier to spot than a small cluster, but it's many times more useful to your team, and your teams chance at victory )

Toshiro, the enemy in question ( in response to your reply to rain ) is, and should be far above the ground, it's a helicopter, not a jeep or a tank. And if it is high up, a lot of the cover you would use vs ground targets does not work against the heli, using cover that protects you from the heli makes you more vulnerable to infantry/ground armour. You, do not matter to the attack heli, he has NO interest in coming down low for you, the only thing that could possibly motivate him is some interest in a kill that is, in all likelihood, not of any real value to the team compared to the other actions he could take ( tanks. helis, jets, other infantry, ect ) If you really are in cover safe from the heli, armed with an RPG, on foot, you're almost certainly not a priority target at all. CAN you bait AHs low for an RPG shot like that? sure, but that doesn't make it a viable AA option.

Quoted from "J0hn-Stuart-Mill"

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Toshiro

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Friday, August 30th 2013, 6:09am

I'm agreeing with with Aen right now. I hate Stiglas and to a lesser extent javelins. It just is so much more rewarding to shoot down that Attack Heli making a strafing run on you while using the RPG.


Same points, so no more rewarding. :P

As rainkloud said, you don't have to personally kill everything, or anything in order to be a, or even the, reason for it's demise. If you are managing to RPG an attack heli in BF3, the attack heli is almost certainly playing seriously 'incorrectly'

why do you hate stiglas and javelins? If you think they're skill-less, I made a post recently on that -

No, Lock-on weapons are not "skill-less" they are pretty skill intensive weapons, they just require skills that aren't recoil control / aim ( purely mechanical skills ). heatseekers rely on timing of countermeasures, timing of firing, terrain ,distance, use of cover, the reload timers of the countermeasures and weapon, the available assistance in the area from other sources of lock-ons, height, and probably some stuff I forgot :D

Not to say that shooting stuff doesn't also require use of terrain or cover and distance, but it requires DIFFERENT use of terrain and cover and distance, and managing all of these things, including both those of shooting and of lock-ons does require a great degree of skill, if I were to face off with a particularly skilled, say, scout pilot, ( for example, widgitybear or labby ) I would lose in a heatseeker only battle over the same terrain using the same helis, IF these weapons were skill-less, I would have an equal chance of winning against these opponents, and it's simply not true, they would destroy me almost certainly every time.


The beeping is irritating sometimes I guess, but that's no reason to want them removed. Not everything has to be a weapon / not every weapon should be focused on direct kills - Mines for example, sure they can kill stuff, and sometimes that happens, BUT using them in the most effective manner actually reduces their chance to kill things, the goal is instead to delay the opposing ground vehicles, to control their movement - how and where they engage your team. ( A large spaced out set of mines is MUCH easier to spot than a small cluster, but it's many times more useful to your team, and your teams chance at victory )

Toshiro, the enemy in question ( in response to your reply to rain ) is, and should be far above the ground, it's a helicopter, not a jeep or a tank. And if it is high up, a lot of the cover you would use vs ground targets does not work against the heli, using cover that protects you from the heli makes you more vulnerable to infantry/ground armour. You, do not matter to the attack heli, he has NO interest in coming down low for you, the only thing that could possibly motivate him is some interest in a kill that is, in all likelihood, not of any real value to the team compared to the other actions he could take ( tanks. helis, jets, other infantry, ect ) If you really are in cover safe from the heli, armed with an RPG, on foot, you're almost certainly not a priority target at all. CAN you bait AHs low for an RPG shot like that? sure, but that doesn't make it a viable AA option.

When in a pub with an inexperienced pilot, I can bait them, since they are not a skillful player. They don't have to be that low for me (or someone like hunturk, or some other reasonably skilled player) to score a hit on them 33% of the time. Obviously, if I were to face off against an experienced heli driver, they would have no interest in me, and Stiglas really wouldn't affect them, except for the annoyance factor. I do agree that Stiglas are a viable tactic for players distracting a heli team, and using up their countermeasures, but chances are that the heli will fly into cover or out of range before the lock completes.
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This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Labby" (Aug 30th 2013, 6:13am) with the following reason: Double Quote + Stinger Best Weapon


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Friday, August 30th 2013, 8:20am


Obviously, if I were to face off against an experienced heli driver, they would have no interest in me, and Stiglas really wouldn't affect them, except for the annoyance factor.

The "annoyance factor" of stiglas, while it won't net you any points, shouldn't be underestimated in its ability to affect the outcome of a match. In one sense it's "only" annoying to them because you don't usually get to actually kill the helicopter crew if the pilot is skilled enough to evade you, but much of the time he's concentrating on evading you is time not spent tearing up your teammates, therefore it's quite a valuable effect.

Darktan13

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Friday, August 30th 2013, 9:02am

When in a pub with an inexperienced pilot, I can bait them, since they are not a skillful player. They don't have to be that low for me (or someone like hunturk, or some other reasonably skilled player) to score a hit on them 33% of the time.


I'm not sure where you got the 33% value from, but whatever. You can bait them because they have a seriously flawed definition of value, baiting players who have no idea what action is valuable and what action is not, has no bearing on anything and I'm not sure where you're going with mentioning that, you cannot balance around the chopper pilot not being experienced or knowledgeable.

Obviously, if I were to face off against an experienced heli driver, they would have no interest in me, and Stiglas really wouldn't affect them, except for the annoyance factor. I do agree that Stiglas are a viable tactic for players distracting a heli team, and using up their countermeasures, but chances are that the heli will fly into cover or out of range before the lock completes.


You just made two contradictory claims, stiglas can't both have no affect on the chopper, and have a useful effect - forcing the heli to pull off into cover ( or otherwise disengaging ). This forcing the heli away is an extremely useful function, it, as the above poster said, means that the heli in question cannot continue to deal it's damage to your team, a clear impact on the choppers effectiveness.

HOWEVER, that said, stiglas ( or any other infantry deployable weapon ) really do have no effect on a GOOD attack helicopter team in BF3, and that really needs to not be the case in BF4.( does have an effect on scouts though ). The reasons why are posted pretty regularly on the forum, but it boils down to this - the AH has many times the range of the stinger, and there is nothing you can do to make it enter that range.

Again, you never have to cause damage in order to be doing something worthwhile, you don't have to kill or injure anything in order to cause it to die, and killing something isn't the only way to limit or even eliminate something as a viable threat.

Quoted from "J0hn-Stuart-Mill"

EMPOWER EMPOWER EMPOWER