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Thursday, June 9th 2016, 2:46pm

Are guns with slow TTK worth using?

I generally play at close ranges (less than 40 meters) on maps such as Pearl Market and Propaganda.
I find that weapons with very fast Time To Kill (Famas, AEK, F2000...) work wonders at close ranges where spread/recoil is not a problem.

However those same weapons tend to be rather unreliable at 40+ (and longer) ranges, i guess due to their spread increase/decrease and recoil.

So i was thinking of trying out some other Assault Rifles/LMGs/Carbines that have much better spread/recoil (like M416, L85A2, AUG A3, SAR-21).
However such weapons with low spread/recoil tend to have a really slow TTK... some even 50% slower than the ones i am using right now!

I am really unsure is it worth getting that better spread/recoil at the cost of losing such a huge amount of TTK?
Perhaps just firing AEK/F2000 a bit slower would give enough accuracy to perform just as well at 40+ meters of range?
To further complicate things Burst-Fire mode gives really inconsistent results on AEK in medium range, sometimes instantly killing and sometimes completely missing...

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Thursday, June 9th 2016, 3:31pm

High ROF weapons have effectively much higher damage output on paper, but both recoil and spread severely reduce their actual hitrate beyond their effective range making most shots miss and therefore their actual TTK skyrockets where slower firing weapons manage to achieve much more reliable hitrate over range.

There are both threads about this on this forums as well as MarbleDuck's videos on his Youtube channel which I recommend watching.

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Thursday, June 9th 2016, 3:46pm

Yes, most of your "slow TTK"/Low RPM weapons actualy out damage your "fast TTK"/High RPM at ranges past ~35 meters give or take. This is due to the much better accuracy given by low SIPS, H-Recoil and SDec. Accuracy is such an important factor because it wont matter how fast you are shooting if nothing hits. And no i dont mean it is easier to hit a target, it will be impossible for a high RPM weapon to out-damage a low RPM weapon if we asume equal players and an even playing field.

So if you find yourself shooting at thoose ranges, then yes if you want the fastest TTK.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Natskyg3" (Jun 9th 2016, 3:52pm)


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Thursday, June 9th 2016, 4:31pm

Firstly, are low RoF weapons balanced?


Yes, they are. They lose out to higher RoF weapons in CQB due to a lower TTK, however, at longer ranges, they are more accurate and thus can hit more shots on the target than a high RoF weapon, which results in them actually having a lower TTK than a high RoF weapon, despite them having a lower RoF.

IIRC there is a graphic floating around which demonstrates the effective TTK of the QBZ vs the AEK when taking into account accuracy, and it shows the QBZ's TTK is equal to the AEK's at 35 m, and lower beyond that.



However, are low RoF weapons useful?


This is subjective, however, my answer is no, they are not as useful as high RoF weapons. That is not to say they are useless, as they clearly do have a niche, but their niche does not occur as frequently as a high RoF weapon's niche. There are many reasons for this.

As Miffyli has shown, ~75% of all kills are performed within a range of 35 m. This is a range at which high RoF weapons can still perform quite decently.

In addition, fighting on and around flags, i.e. what you should be fighting on, is CQB-oriented. Having a high RoF weapon allows oneself to perform optimally on arguably the most important areas in the game.

It is also not too difficult to find cover whilst transitioning in-between flags, i.e. the ranges at which lower RoF weapons excel at. And in most cases, vehicles perform a much better job of killing infantry between flags than other infantry do.



Marbleduck has an excellent video explaining this.
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

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SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

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Thursday, June 9th 2016, 4:44pm

unrelated, but i hope that if dice keeps on using spread as a main mean for balance, they will use data from alpha and beta to improve balance based on average engagement distance per map.

anyway, as zerocodex said they are less useful than high rof weapons, but you can still use mid-rof weapons effectively in close quarters as long as you get an headshot or 2, so i'd say, in the end it really all depends on your playstyle and loadout.
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Thursday, June 9th 2016, 7:05pm

Thank you all for replying, very interesting info.

More replies, opinions and explanations on this topic are always welcome :)

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Friday, June 10th 2016, 7:12am


in the end it really all depends on your playstyle and loadout.


And the map, I'd say.


I use a plethora of weapons from the game, and aside from just what sort of mood I'm in a lot of what I use depends on the map and how I'll be navigating through it.

If I am playing on a map like that one that's on an aircraft carrier (forget the name, Lost Islands maybe?) I'll bring a high RPM weapon with me no question. I'm aggressive as hell and will CONSTANTLY push the enemy anywhere I feel is a weak point, and I can't afford to be outgunned in CQB, especially when I might be firing into a huddled group. AS-VAL, MTAR, SG553, I need an 800+ RPM gun to be effective or I pop out, get maybe 1 or 2, then get lit up. If I use an ACR instead of a CZ805 I'll take more bodies with me.

At the same time if I'm playing on Rogue Transmission I know I'll be running from flag to flag taking the long ways around, and I'll need something that can deal with people down the road. I'll take an AUG, SCAR, M240B, something 700- RPM that has a very controllable burst or can hit like a ton of bricks (though I've never quite been a fan of the really extreme guns like the SAR21, if I'm going that slow I'll take an intermediate cartridge instead of a light cartridge, so SCAR>SAR21)

Typically I'm a flanker and find myself in medium range engagements just getting from point A to point B, but then end up in CQB once I get there. While a higher RPM gun would be beneficial at the site of the flank, it's not really that effective at protecting me while I'm getting there. On the reverse side, a slow RPM gun would be great for me while on the move but may prove disastrous once I execute the flank and find myself against multiple opponents.
Rather than have such clearly defined positives and negatives, I'll take a weapon that's more benign in the 750+/- RPM range. L85, M416, AWS, PDR, etc. It actually seems like it'd be more disadvantaged in more situations, you lose up close AND far away to weapons more specialized, but the thing is as long as you the operator have confidence in your accuracy up close and your control at range you CAN fight at BOTH of those ranges with the same weapon, whereas the low RPM guns are more or less ineffective up close and the high RPM guns are more or less ineffective at range.
So you trade a clear cut advantage for a more balanced ability. Simply put it's the jack of all trades and master of none, but it's also a weapon that doesn't take no for an answer...


So I'm typically a medium RPM user, but will slow down on larger maps and speed up on smaller maps. It pays to be versatile.
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This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Watcher-45" (Jun 10th 2016, 7:24am)


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Friday, June 10th 2016, 3:32pm

Rather than have such clearly defined positives and negatives, I'll take a weapon that's more benign in the 750+/- RPM range. L85, M416, AWS, PDR, etc. It actually seems like it'd be more disadvantaged in more situations, you lose up close AND far away to weapons more specialized, but the thing is as long as you the operator have confidence in your accuracy up close and your control at range you CAN fight at BOTH of those ranges with the same weapon, whereas the low RPM guns are more or less ineffective up close and the high RPM guns are more or less ineffective at range.
So you trade a clear cut advantage for a more balanced ability. Simply put it's the jack of all trades and master of none, but it's also a weapon that doesn't take no for an answer...

Well, that's not quite correct.

Guns with a medium RoF actually have a clear-cut advantage over both high and low RoF weapons at medium ranges. It's just that in addition to this, they can somewhat fulfil CQB and longer ranged roles.
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


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Friday, June 10th 2016, 9:53pm

CQB combat you can't escape, long range combat is nearly always optional. So, there are no downsides in using high ROF (edit: high TTK) weapons.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Mori4rte" (Jun 10th 2016, 10:05pm)