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Sheepnub

I pity the wool

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1

Monday, June 6th 2016, 11:30pm

Gadget resupply timers

Greetings all,

This is a common discussion for me to have with others, and I am curious to see as to what the bigger crowd thinks about it.

Currently in BF4 the ammo bag resupplies ammunition for firearms and gadgets at different rates. This is, amongst others, done as to balance weapons against eachothers, prevent excessive spam and generally direct the flow of the game by throttling the frequency of weapon useage.

This raises a big question though: Other than simply ‘supplying ammo’, how should the ammo bag work?
From my point of view the ammo bag should function as to prevent continuous spamming of gadgets, but should still resupply fast enough to make sure sitting on an ammobag (=sacrificing time) is a viable option. Besides, if you are in this situation it means the support did his job by supplying you ammo!

Gadgets within the same group often share the same timer – despite them functioning entirely differently from each other. I believe the gadgets in this aspect are sometimes rather extremely poorly balanced. Let me take my personal pet peeve as an example – the engineer’s launchers

Let’s take the SMAW and RPG as examples. They resupply at a rate that ensures they can’t be spammed at full speed when you sit on an ammo bag, yet still makes them worthy to resupply. You will sit on an ammo bag for 1 minute, and you will be able to shoot for about 40 seconds. This is fair and works out pretty well.

Comparing that to the SRAW, Javelin and the LAW however yields an interesting perspective. These weapons feel much less worthy to resupply. Players using these launchers will find themselves waiting for what feels like an eternity in-between resupplies just to fire off one shot, and then go straight back to cowering behind a wall waiting for the next rocket to finally fill up.
They may as well ignore the ammo bag right next to them and take on an anti-infantry role with their primary and secondary firearms instead – And perhaps find another engineer kit to pick up and fire a handful of rockets with later on!

This completely goes against the “prevent spam ,but still be viable” principle of the ammo bag!

I took the liberty of calculating the uptime for each AT launcher in an ammobag-camping situation:


On average a SRAW-user running out of rockets will function at 35% capacity when getting resupplied, while a SMAW user will function at 62%. Running out of rockets with a SRAW is literally almost twice as bad; and that is exactly what bothers me.

I would like to see a system where the ammo bag grants a viable, but fair, option of resupplying your equipment - Regardless of which piece of equipment you are using. Don’t get me wrong, certain things should take longer to obtain than others. But groups of weapons within their own category (i.e. launchers vs launchers) should have a comparable drop in performance in this situation.

I took launchers as a big example for this, but the same principle should go for all gadgets. I would like to know how you guys feel about this.
"I put aside a few sceptics, the types of decency in the history of philosophy: the rest haven't the slightest conception of intellectual integrity."
Friedrich Nietzsche


Best of epic quotes :D

Spoiler Spoiler

Just realized it's 4/20 tomorrow


Thanks for the heads up!
*Logs out of Symthic in preparation*

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

>littlebird passanger, semi-auto frag rounds
>gunship OP

Meanwhile at DICE-headquarters during BF4's release:

I'm pretty sure there's a massive post-it on every desk "DON'T FUCKING TOUCH ANYTHING THAT IS ACTUALLY DOING WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE DOING"

UCAV:
"Hey guys remember how stupid prenerf mav was?"

"Lets add c4 to it."

The World Champion went to China once.

They called me a Gweilo.

So I kicked a big fucking hole in their wall and let all the Mongolians in.

just thought I'd share.


The thought of Assaults running out of ACE 23 rounds mid firefight, Engineers facing the rear of an unaware MBT with no rockets left, Recons unable to...Whatever the fuck they do. These are the things that keep me up at night ;(


About hunturk:
I don't know what's funnier, the video itself of the fact that an unlisted video has more views than most of your normal videos :P

...


You just live to hit people upside the noggin with a Math Bomb, don't you?

[context] Maybe it's the UK's overly aggressive porn filter at work. After all, it does have the word "monkey" in it and monkeys have been known to have sex so...


Previously, at DICE HQ:
"Ok guys, the password is "epic dream worlds"; everyone take a letter and do your best to turn it into into something random that we can put into a picture!"


I assume a functional game (BF4) also.

Aww!
*pinches cheeks*
So cute!


But but but

He's a Youtuber ;(

There's no way he doesn't know what he's talking about


Sheepnub

I pity the wool

(2,328)

  • "Sheepnub" started this thread

Posts: 3,229

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2

Monday, June 6th 2016, 11:30pm

(reserved for reasons)
"I put aside a few sceptics, the types of decency in the history of philosophy: the rest haven't the slightest conception of intellectual integrity."
Friedrich Nietzsche


Best of epic quotes :D

Spoiler Spoiler

Just realized it's 4/20 tomorrow


Thanks for the heads up!
*Logs out of Symthic in preparation*

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

>littlebird passanger, semi-auto frag rounds
>gunship OP

Meanwhile at DICE-headquarters during BF4's release:

I'm pretty sure there's a massive post-it on every desk "DON'T FUCKING TOUCH ANYTHING THAT IS ACTUALLY DOING WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE DOING"

UCAV:
"Hey guys remember how stupid prenerf mav was?"

"Lets add c4 to it."

The World Champion went to China once.

They called me a Gweilo.

So I kicked a big fucking hole in their wall and let all the Mongolians in.

just thought I'd share.


The thought of Assaults running out of ACE 23 rounds mid firefight, Engineers facing the rear of an unaware MBT with no rockets left, Recons unable to...Whatever the fuck they do. These are the things that keep me up at night ;(


About hunturk:
I don't know what's funnier, the video itself of the fact that an unlisted video has more views than most of your normal videos :P

...


You just live to hit people upside the noggin with a Math Bomb, don't you?

[context] Maybe it's the UK's overly aggressive porn filter at work. After all, it does have the word "monkey" in it and monkeys have been known to have sex so...


Previously, at DICE HQ:
"Ok guys, the password is "epic dream worlds"; everyone take a letter and do your best to turn it into into something random that we can put into a picture!"


I assume a functional game (BF4) also.

Aww!
*pinches cheeks*
So cute!


But but but

He's a Youtuber ;(

There's no way he doesn't know what he's talking about


NoctyrneSAGA

PvF 2017 Champion

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: Apr 3rd 2012

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3

Monday, June 6th 2016, 11:42pm

Gadgets should function like the UCAV and SUAV. Set timer before an autoreplenish.

Ammo Box speeds up the passage of this timer so that they replenish faster.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

Sheepnub

I pity the wool

(2,328)

  • "Sheepnub" started this thread

Posts: 3,229

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: Sep 20th 2013

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4

Monday, June 6th 2016, 11:48pm

Gadgets should function like the UCAV and SUAV. Set timer before an autoreplenish.

Ammo Box speeds up the passage of this timer so that they replenish faster.

That is one option yes (one I honestly wouldn't mind seeing ingame TBH).

My main issue though is how the ammo bag, in its current state, does not always supply ammo fast enough to even make it worthwhile to begin with (or creates an unnecessary gap in performance between weapons within the same group). That is the first issue I'd like others' opinions and views on.
"I put aside a few sceptics, the types of decency in the history of philosophy: the rest haven't the slightest conception of intellectual integrity."
Friedrich Nietzsche


Best of epic quotes :D

Spoiler Spoiler

Just realized it's 4/20 tomorrow


Thanks for the heads up!
*Logs out of Symthic in preparation*

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

>littlebird passanger, semi-auto frag rounds
>gunship OP

Meanwhile at DICE-headquarters during BF4's release:

I'm pretty sure there's a massive post-it on every desk "DON'T FUCKING TOUCH ANYTHING THAT IS ACTUALLY DOING WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE DOING"

UCAV:
"Hey guys remember how stupid prenerf mav was?"

"Lets add c4 to it."

The World Champion went to China once.

They called me a Gweilo.

So I kicked a big fucking hole in their wall and let all the Mongolians in.

just thought I'd share.


The thought of Assaults running out of ACE 23 rounds mid firefight, Engineers facing the rear of an unaware MBT with no rockets left, Recons unable to...Whatever the fuck they do. These are the things that keep me up at night ;(


About hunturk:
I don't know what's funnier, the video itself of the fact that an unlisted video has more views than most of your normal videos :P

...


You just live to hit people upside the noggin with a Math Bomb, don't you?

[context] Maybe it's the UK's overly aggressive porn filter at work. After all, it does have the word "monkey" in it and monkeys have been known to have sex so...


Previously, at DICE HQ:
"Ok guys, the password is "epic dream worlds"; everyone take a letter and do your best to turn it into into something random that we can put into a picture!"


I assume a functional game (BF4) also.

Aww!
*pinches cheeks*
So cute!


But but but

He's a Youtuber ;(

There's no way he doesn't know what he's talking about


Posts: 248

Date of registration
: Jun 5th 2015

Platform: Xbox One

Location: Land of the Midnight Sun

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5

Monday, June 6th 2016, 11:54pm

Implement ammo regen, ammo box speeds up the recharge time of rockets (and other things) by a percentage. Rocket recharge will be balanced per laucher. Result: "resupplying" is equally viable for everything.

As for your example, you mean the SRAW should have a shorter resupply? I am a little confused about how it is bad currently. You are able to fire off as many rockets as e.g. the SMAW per minute atm, just with less time spent reloading. I dont really see how this is an issue, other than it being more boring without an entertaining reload animation.

Edit: oi, sort of ninjaed by Noctyrne

signature 2.1

Things I support
ammo regen pls

Quoted from "NoctyrneSAGA"

_____

When I play with it [Autoloading 8] I feel like I am batman taking out 1 after 1 baddie while they feel helpless and don't know who is talking out their mates.
Remove 3D spotting. It’s a mechanic that rewards bad eyesight.
Wanna help your team by sneaking through enemy territory to provide spawns? THIS IS NOT TEAMWORK FGT I HOPE YOU RUN OUT OF MOTION BALLS TOO EARLY TO BE SUCCESSFUL
Wanna be Javelin squad but only have two guys? BETTER NOT GET YOUR SOFLAM KILLED FGT THIS IS NOT TEAMWORK WITHOUT A SUPPORT DUDE DROPPING AMMO ON YOU EVERY 2 MINUTES
Please post your best M1916 clips Magazines *fixed*.

Cool/Useful Links

What Makes the Best Player?
David Sirlin on Intuition
Archive - Wait But Why - I recommend the posts on AI, and Neuralink, in that order. They are long, but very interesting. Just skim parts of them.

Symthic Databrowser
Battlefield 1 DeployTimes

Sheepnub

I pity the wool

(2,328)

  • "Sheepnub" started this thread

Posts: 3,229

Date of registration
: Sep 20th 2013

Platform: PC

Location: Atlantis

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6

Monday, June 6th 2016, 11:57pm

As for your example, you mean the SRAW should have a shorter resupply? I am a little confused about how it is bad currently. You are be able to fire off as many rockets as e.g. the SMAW atm, just with less time spent reloading. I dont really see how this is an issue, other than it being more boring without an entertaining reload animation.

Yes.

Mainly because of the big %-wise drop in overall performance between two gadgets within the same group, despite comparable circumstances.
"I put aside a few sceptics, the types of decency in the history of philosophy: the rest haven't the slightest conception of intellectual integrity."
Friedrich Nietzsche


Best of epic quotes :D

Spoiler Spoiler

Just realized it's 4/20 tomorrow


Thanks for the heads up!
*Logs out of Symthic in preparation*

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

>littlebird passanger, semi-auto frag rounds
>gunship OP

Meanwhile at DICE-headquarters during BF4's release:

I'm pretty sure there's a massive post-it on every desk "DON'T FUCKING TOUCH ANYTHING THAT IS ACTUALLY DOING WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE DOING"

UCAV:
"Hey guys remember how stupid prenerf mav was?"

"Lets add c4 to it."

The World Champion went to China once.

They called me a Gweilo.

So I kicked a big fucking hole in their wall and let all the Mongolians in.

just thought I'd share.


The thought of Assaults running out of ACE 23 rounds mid firefight, Engineers facing the rear of an unaware MBT with no rockets left, Recons unable to...Whatever the fuck they do. These are the things that keep me up at night ;(


About hunturk:
I don't know what's funnier, the video itself of the fact that an unlisted video has more views than most of your normal videos :P

...


You just live to hit people upside the noggin with a Math Bomb, don't you?

[context] Maybe it's the UK's overly aggressive porn filter at work. After all, it does have the word "monkey" in it and monkeys have been known to have sex so...


Previously, at DICE HQ:
"Ok guys, the password is "epic dream worlds"; everyone take a letter and do your best to turn it into into something random that we can put into a picture!"


I assume a functional game (BF4) also.

Aww!
*pinches cheeks*
So cute!


But but but

He's a Youtuber ;(

There's no way he doesn't know what he's talking about

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Sheepnub" (Jun 7th 2016, 12:02am)


Posts: 248

Date of registration
: Jun 5th 2015

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7

Tuesday, June 7th 2016, 12:34am

@Sheepnub

Oh now I get it. When fully stocked the SRAW can shoot every 2.8 sec, while the SMAW can only shoot every fifth. This drops to 1/8sec when resupplying for both. Sorry for being stupid.

Yes I agree. After all, the rockets are (or should be) balanced around their stats, not their available ammo (as they both can carry enough to kill a tank).

Pretending ammo regen exists, it would make sense that the SRAW regens a rocket every 2.8*x seconds, the SMAW every 5*x. Then with the ammo box working as a regen speed multiplier we have what you want.

signature 2.1

Things I support
ammo regen pls

Quoted from "NoctyrneSAGA"

_____

When I play with it [Autoloading 8] I feel like I am batman taking out 1 after 1 baddie while they feel helpless and don't know who is talking out their mates.
Remove 3D spotting. It’s a mechanic that rewards bad eyesight.
Wanna help your team by sneaking through enemy territory to provide spawns? THIS IS NOT TEAMWORK FGT I HOPE YOU RUN OUT OF MOTION BALLS TOO EARLY TO BE SUCCESSFUL
Wanna be Javelin squad but only have two guys? BETTER NOT GET YOUR SOFLAM KILLED FGT THIS IS NOT TEAMWORK WITHOUT A SUPPORT DUDE DROPPING AMMO ON YOU EVERY 2 MINUTES
Please post your best M1916 clips Magazines *fixed*.

Cool/Useful Links

What Makes the Best Player?
David Sirlin on Intuition
Archive - Wait But Why - I recommend the posts on AI, and Neuralink, in that order. They are long, but very interesting. Just skim parts of them.

Symthic Databrowser
Battlefield 1 DeployTimes

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "potetr" (Jun 7th 2016, 12:45am)


8

Wednesday, June 8th 2016, 3:05pm

Interesting topic.
I think all gadgets should automatically slowly resupply, and the ammo box just makes that happen much faster.

Current design of hugging the ammo box for a long time before it gives you gadgets is lame, boring and slows down gameplay.

I would love if all gadgets slowly resupplied on their own, it would make all classes much more fun to play.

Zer0Cod3x

Can't get a title

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Location: The Land of Multitudinous Kangaroos

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9

Wednesday, June 8th 2016, 3:33pm

On average a SRAW-user running out of rockets will function at 35% capacity when getting resupplied, while a SMAW user will function at 62%. Running out of rockets with a SRAW is literally almost twice as bad; and that is exactly what bothers me.

I would like to see a system where the ammo bag grants a viable, but fair, option of resupplying your equipment - Regardless of which piece of equipment you are using. Don’t get me wrong, certain things should take longer to obtain than others. But groups of weapons within their own category (i.e. launchers vs launchers) should have a comparable drop in performance in this situation.

What if you were to change the amount of initial ammo available?
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


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10

Thursday, June 9th 2016, 7:43am

I think the problem with automatic resupply means it makes it more viable to have more of other classes rather than actually playing support. Competitively speaking, support is a non-existent class.

To be fair though, I do believe the ammo regen rate for rocket launchers is comparatively long. (I.E. Looking at SRAW/Javelin/LAW mainly), but at the same time, these three are capable of locking onto the vehicles and potentially guaranteeing a hit. And with a lased target, it increases damage further (unless hitting the tank at 90 degrees to its rear). Because of these reasons, I think the lock-on sort of justifies them for having a longer ammo regen per firing.

And lastly, Engineer is my least played class, so my opinion might be skewed because I play Support more often.
I love the math behind the statistics
It's possible to find me online at almost any given time, due to the fact that my schedule is hectic and rather non-existent.

Who needs sleep anyways?
(PC/PS4 gamer)

Various bf4 spreadsheets: (nothing special, just raw data from the Symthic website put into a spreadsheet to analyze all values at once)

Spoiler Spoiler


General Weapon spreadsheet:
BF4_Weapons_enhanced_UPDATED_2016
Soldier Equipment:
BF4_Gadget_Damage
Interactive Damage Table
bf4_dmg_at_range - Google Sheets
Unsuppressed Sniper Rifle Bullet Drop Charts
bf4_sniper_guide
Suppressed Sniper Rifle Bullet Drop Charts
Suppressed bf4_sniper_guide
More user friendly Unsuppressed Sniper Rifle Bullet Drop Chart
Friendlier Sniper rifle Bullet Drop Chart
More user friendly Suppressed Sniper Rifle Bullet Drop Chart
Friendlier Suppressed Sniper Rifle Bullet Drop Chart