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: Apr 13th 2016

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11

Wednesday, June 8th 2016, 2:30am

Quoted from "NZdude"



zoom optics for driver and gunner.

So that you have horrible situational awareness and die to mines you can't see or spot? No. Thermals. For at least one of you.

Nah, I find I'm able to spot mines with or without thermal just fine. That or if I'm not sure I just spam the spot button and I'll spot them.

12

Wednesday, June 8th 2016, 3:56am

Assuming you're actually the only person I've ever met who's mine spotting actually works... You still get bad situational awareness.

I know this because my driver needs zoom to hit long shots too. He constantly drives past dudes hiding in bushes. He's an exceptional player, but this game renders poorly. A player can hide behind the correct object and simply not be rendered in at all (those client-side trees tho). With thermals on, you see those guys.



Let's put it this way: You can do everything without zoom, that you can do with zoom, if you develop skill for it.

The same cannot be said for thermals. Thermals allow you to see that which you could not otherwise see.

So: Thermals are better.

NoctyrneSAGA

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13

Wednesday, June 8th 2016, 7:19pm

Totally true.

With enough training, you can see something that isn't rendered at long distance without zoom.



And with Thermals, you don't get to see any infantry past 220m anyways! Let's not forget that new fancy camo that makes you invisible on thermals!




No, Thermals are not better.

They were horrible before and were made even worse with the availability of an anti-thermal camouflage.

Coincidentally, this camouflage is white and stands out against most colors. Something Zoom can take advantage of.

They're still good if you want weird color-scaling.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

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14

Thursday, June 9th 2016, 7:48am

Assuming you're actually the only person I've ever met who's mine spotting actually works... You still get bad situational awareness.

I know this because my driver needs zoom to hit long shots too. He constantly drives past dudes hiding in bushes. He's an exceptional player, but this game renders poorly. A player can hide behind the correct object and simply not be rendered in at all (those client-side trees tho). With thermals on, you see those guys.



Let's put it this way: You can do everything without zoom, that you can do with zoom, if you develop skill for it.

The same cannot be said for thermals. Thermals allow you to see that which you could not otherwise see.

So: Thermals are better.

Fair enough. I've just found the zoom optics more reliable in more situations than the thermals. Could be because I'm a more defensive armour player, and being on console, I don't get the same precision as an MnK, and the zoom optics help me be more accurate at longer range. I reckon it's personal preference.

15

Monday, June 13th 2016, 1:21am

If you know where the shot is going and you know where the target is, you don't need it to render.

Besides, I'd rather lose visibility of the guy over 200m away, than the guy right next to me with C4 behind the magic bushes that make him invisible without thermals....Or the mines I'm about to drive over that aren't visible because they're under a shrub, and can't be spotted.

But infy still render in optical cameras at that range. So I don't have to trade off.

Thermal camo on tanks will totally fool you if you're daft enough not to be switching from visible to thermal cameras and switching back again constantly.

You're not meant to use thermals full-time. You're meant to flick them on to check for stuff and flick them off for visibility. You use 3rd person for better situational awareness and for long range shots at certain angles.

Zoom for the driver can help land longer range TOWs, but you want your gunner on comms and with thermals to tell you what you're missing. On maps like Flood Zone it's not such a big deal but on maps like Zavod.... lol. The trees rule that map. Not to mention the mines that will be everywhere on any big map.

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16

Wednesday, June 15th 2016, 6:56pm

If you know where the shot is going and you know where the target is, you don't need it to render.

Besides, I'd rather lose visibility of the guy over 200m away, than the guy right next to me with C4 behind the magic bushes that make him invisible without thermals....Or the mines I'm about to drive over that aren't visible because they're under a shrub, and can't be spotted.

But infy still render in optical cameras at that range. So I don't have to trade off.

Thermal camo on tanks will totally fool you if you're daft enough not to be switching from visible to thermal cameras and switching back again constantly.

You're not meant to use thermals full-time. You're meant to flick them on to check for stuff and flick them off for visibility. You use 3rd person for better situational awareness and for long range shots at certain angles.

Zoom for the driver can help land longer range TOWs, but you want your gunner on comms and with thermals to tell you what you're missing. On maps like Flood Zone it's not such a big deal but on maps like Zavod.... lol. The trees rule that map. Not to mention the mines that will be everywhere on any big map.
I tend to agree. Its not that I like Thermals (I actually think they make the game look ugly), but I find that as a Driver/Gunner they allow me to be FAR more aggressive in attacking/defending capture points. As you said, the key is switching back and forth regularly to make sure you're not missing anything with one or the other.


I used Zoom Optics for a long time and while it really helped for insanely long distance shots, but when I switched to Thermals I was instantly better equipped to capture points, and found it much easier to locate and hit the REALLY good players who know how to peak and shoot RPG's really quick (you can easily see the crown of their head right before they pop out with Thermals, Zoom just gives you larger uglier pixels... at least on Xbox One). Not to mention spotting those Recon/Support C4'ers hiding in bushes is much easier.

On a map like Silk Road I wouldnt need Thermals, but on most of the more closed maps with lots of elevation and places for infantry to hide I find Thermals to be infinitely more useful... almost to the extent of being overpowered... and this is coming from someone who still spams the spot button like no other.

I will admit, at first I struggled with long distance targets(without zoom optics) when using the the AA or MBT, but after some practice I really dont feel the need for the extra magnification anymore and can judge distance and lead pretty damn good now. If anything I feel like Thermals have become a crutch for me because of how easy it allows me to locate enemy players that I couldnt otherwise notice (Xbox One rendering isnt good).

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17

Sunday, August 21st 2016, 4:49pm

Just going to posit that zoom is more useful on console as it allows more precise aiming. Mice users probably don't need to worry about this, but with a controller if you have your sensitivity turned up high enough to manage close range fights you absolutely will not be able to make precise long ranged shots (particularly those tricky TOW shots) without zoom. Plus, it's not like you have it zoomed in all the time so I don't know how you would miss someone sitting in a bush. Mines are a bit of a problem though.

Also, I may cop flak for this but I've actually started using the fire extinguisher on IFVs since it can bail you out when you inevitably get disabled since IFV armour sucks and even direct hits to the front disable the vehicle. Whereas smoke only protects you if you see the shot coming, the FE can save you after a hit. It can also save the vehicle from lock on rocket disables from Javelins or aircraft. It used to be crap, but now it recharges really fast. It also starts up healing which is kinda handy.

Zer0Cod3x

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18

Monday, August 22nd 2016, 10:56am

Just going to posit that zoom is more useful on console as it allows more precise aiming. Mice users probably don't need to worry about this, but with a controller if you have your sensitivity turned up high enough to manage close range fights you absolutely will not be able to make precise long ranged shots (particularly those tricky TOW shots) without zoom. Plus, it's not like you have it zoomed in all the time so I don't know how you would miss someone sitting in a bush. Mines are a bit of a problem though.

Actually, I'd say the exact opposite.

Zoom only beats thermal optics past 220 m, i.e. the range at which thermal optics no longer highlights targets. Inside that range though, if you can aim well enough, there's no real reason to use zoom optics.

Now, excluding the fact that engagements past 220 m for MBTs/IFVs/FACs are very rare (this point alone should make zoom redundant), the limitations of the console hardware make engagements at 220 m nigh impossible. I can't tell you what the render distance for consoles is, but I'm willing to bet it's much less than 220 m. If you can't actually see your target at 220 m, what's the point of using optics that facilitate engagements past that distance? It's essentially redundant.

This isn't even mentioning that the console video quality isn't the best either. Thermal makes the mediocre video quality of the consoles not affect you as much.


On the AH and MAA, this is very different. By all means use zoom. Those are the only vehicles that actually have meaningful engagements past 220 m.

Also, I may cop flak for this but I've actually started using the fire extinguisher on IFVs since it can bail you out when you inevitably get disabled since IFV armour sucks and even direct hits to the front disable the vehicle. Whereas smoke only protects you if you see the shot coming, the FE can save you after a hit. It can also save the vehicle from lock on rocket disables from Javelins or aircraft. It used to be crap, but now it recharges really fast. It also starts up healing which is kinda handy.

Reactive armour?
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


19

Tuesday, August 23rd 2016, 3:38am

with a controller if you have your sensitivity turned up high enough to manage close range fights you absolutely will not be able to make precise long ranged shots (particularly those tricky TOW shots) without zoom.


I beg to differ and so do my clips and my 100% vehicle sensitivity ;)

KDNS's Xbox clips on XboxDVR.com
KDNS's Xbox clips on XboxDVR.com
KDNS's Xbox clips on XboxDVR.com
KDNS's Xbox clips on XboxDVR.com
KDNS's Xbox clips on XboxDVR.com

You don't aim TOW with your eyes, you judge it's position by flight time and projectile velocity.

PS I haven't uploaded most of my clips so I don't have many examples. Two of these are old and the other three are from one single day's play.