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31

Tuesday, May 3rd 2016, 1:16am

Give assault ammo and support revives and heals, ala bc2. I think it was a better balance provided ARs stay more effective than lmgs.

Forger21

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32

Wednesday, May 4th 2016, 2:55am

To make support viable competitively would probably require a major rework of the class system such as that which often happens during development of a completely new game in the battlefield franchise, where primary weapons and key gadgets are completely switched around.

The obvious change didn't occur to me until Waakzaamheid walked past my PC and asked what I was typing. He said the first thing to come to mind would be reducing the number of spare magazines/ amount of reserve ammo for all the other classes. Right now ammo management is irrelevant, first because unless you're playing opponents who are much worse than you, you're not going to live to run out of ammo very much, second, depending on the game mode, player count, and specific situation, you often will need to be respawning a lot anyways, and third, if you do start to run low you will often be able to pick up a kit off a dead player. Waak also mentioned, do you even want ammo management to be relevant or significant in competitive play? Does that add anything, or would it be a change for the worse?

In competitive BF4, choosing what class to spawn as at any given time in a competitive match can be distilled down to just a few key criteria. There are some exceptions, such as when you're spawning in specifically to use a vehicle asset or set up a c4 quad or need a specific gadget or class-specific weapon for some kind of unusual team strategy, such as on certain maps where AT launchers can be unusually effective against infantry. In general though, choosing a class would be based on going through the following three questions, starting with the first.

1. After you spawn, will you encounter enemy vehicles or friendly vehicles? If the answer is yes than you should be bringing the relevant type of AT or AA launcher so you can control the movements of, or kill, enemy vehicles; or you should bring a repair torch to repair friendly vehicles. Either way that means engineer class, and you will probably be bringing either both those things or a launcher and mines. If the answer is no, if you will only be facing infantry this life, either because of the gamemode/map you're playing or because you will be staying in an area without frequent vehicles this life, then go to the next question.

2. Are motion sensors banned by the ruleset you're playing with or will you be spending this entire life after you spawn in areas of the map that already have constant and extensive motion sensor coverage from your teamates? If the answer is no, then you should be bringing some kind of motion sensor to spot enemies in your area. That means recon class. If the answer is yes, if your teammates already have this covered and you won't be operating away from their sensors, then go to the next question. (I'm not sure if there are any currently active rulesets in BF4 that allow spawn beacons, but if there are you should include spawn beacons in this question)

3. This isn't really a question, but if you have already answered the first two questions without being forced into a kit by the gadgets mentioned above, you should bring med kit and defibs to help your teammates persist in an area at full health without needing to wait through a respawn timer. This means assault class.

In competitive BF4, a few key gadgets are so important, and all-kit weapons are close enough in performance to any kit-specific weapon, that how viable any particular class is competitively is just a function of which classes have the key gadgets, and choosing which gadget to bring is a function of whether your team already have enough of the most important gadget where you're going to make it optimal to bring the next best gadget.
2143

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33

Thursday, May 5th 2016, 7:49pm

how viable any particular class is competitively is just a function of which classes have the key gadgets, and choosing which gadget to bring is a function of whether your team already have enough of the most important gadget where you're going to make it optimal to bring the next best gadget.


It reads like you wanted to write one more paragraph. Therefore I ask: What is the key gadget, you wanted to tell us ?

(my guess is the M32MGL with some proper Anti Vehicle Capabilities)
(or an Anti-Minimap-Appear gadget -> the exact counterpart to the TUGS)
still playin' Motorstorm

Forger21

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34

Thursday, May 5th 2016, 11:53pm

how viable any particular class is competitively is just a function of which classes have the key gadgets, and choosing which gadget to bring is a function of whether your team already have enough of the most important gadget where you're going to make it optimal to bring the next best gadget.


It reads like you wanted to write one more paragraph. Therefore I ask: What is the key gadget, you wanted to tell us ?

(my guess is the M32MGL with some proper Anti Vehicle Capabilities)
(or an Anti-Minimap-Appear gadget -> the exact counterpart to the TUGS)

Oh, I was referring to the preceding 3 paragraphs, basically launchers and repair torch, followed by motion sensors (and spawn beacons if not banned), followed distantly by medkit and defibs, with c4 being up there in specific circumstances. One note about c4 that is very relevant to this thread: there's almost no reason to use support for c4 when recon has a perk that gives double the usual amount of c4 and, of course, also has access to motion sensors.
2143

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35

Friday, May 6th 2016, 2:02am

Give assault ammo and support revives and heals, ala bc2. I think it was a better balance provided ARs stay more effective than lmgs.
That makes way too much sense, I don't think we'll ever see it happen :(

NoctyrneSAGA

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36

Friday, May 6th 2016, 2:26am

Give assault ammo and support revives and heals, ala bc2. I think it was a better balance provided ARs stay more effective than lmgs.
That makes way too much sense, I don't think we'll ever see it happen :(


Maybe we don't see it because it actually doesn't make sense?
Data Browser

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37

Friday, May 6th 2016, 9:08am

how viable any particular class is competitively is just a function of which classes have the key gadgets, and choosing which gadget to bring is a function of whether your team already have enough of the most important gadget where you're going to make it optimal to bring the next best gadget.


It reads like you wanted to write one more paragraph. Therefore I ask: What is the key gadget, you wanted to tell us ?

(my guess is the M32MGL with some proper Anti Vehicle Capabilities)
(or an Anti-Minimap-Appear gadget -> the exact counterpart to the TUGS)

Oh, I was referring to the preceding 3 paragraphs, basically launchers and repair torch, followed by motion sensors (and spawn beacons if not banned), followed distantly by medkit and defibs, with c4 being up there in specific circumstances. One note about c4 that is very relevant to this thread: there's almost no reason to use support for c4 when recon has a perk that gives double the usual amount of c4 and, of course, also has access to motion sensors.


I really need to pose my questions more precisely: What is the key gadget, the support needs, you wanted to tell us, after you listed the key gadgets all other classes have ?
still playin' Motorstorm

C0llis

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38

Friday, May 6th 2016, 1:20pm

This is entirely my own opinion, but removing players from entrenched positions/rooftops is a relevant niche. Obviously less so in comp, but there are many maps in BF4 where a team with spawn beacons on a roof can gain an unreasonable amount of leverage on certain flags and be almost impossible to clear out.

Viable indirect fire gadgets would IMO be a worthwhile niche. Of course, it would be less viable in comp where min-maxing is taken to the extreme.

Along with specializing in suppression and mobile protection/cover (shield/MP-APS/smoke etc.) support could be turned into a great class for _supporting_ offensive moves. Assault and engineers would obviously still be the bread and butter but a support player could, with good gadget tuning, be turned into a force multiplier.


EDIT: As long as respawning works as it currently does ammo will never be a worthwhile niche (and there are good arguments for why it shouldn't be either, see the ammo regen debate).

Things people said

And reading Youtube comments still gives me Turbo Cancer.

It really is quite frustrating when Helen Keller sets up her LMG in the only doorway in/out of an area.

What kind of question is that? Since when is cheese ever a bad idea?

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

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39

Saturday, May 7th 2016, 1:30am

I really need to pose my questions more precisely: What is the key gadget, the support needs, you wanted to tell us, after you listed the key gadgets all other classes have ?

I was just talking about the current key gadgets. I didn't intend to imply that I had something in mind as a potential key gadget for support.
2143

VincentNZ

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40

Saturday, May 7th 2016, 2:02pm

I think the balance works well on any public server. If treated right the support with any loadout can be as effective as any other class.

As for competitive, I guess the problem results in low playercounts, are there even leagues that doe play 16vs16 or more? If not then balance as it is meant to be by the Dev is futile. As long as the individual is the key factor and not the squad/team some loadouts will just be undwerwhelming.