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  • "dnLL" started this thread

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Friday, March 4th 2016, 1:00am

Optimized hardcore loadout

Hey all,

My first post here on Symthic but I've been reading a lot of threads here and there, and just decided to post to optimize my loadout even further. I've only been playing BF4 since Christmas so my experience is still pretty limited (roughly 150h), and I've only been playing hardcore as a personal preference (don't like how easy it is to spot people in normal but how hard it is to actually kill someone, but that's just me). With that said, notice how I wrote "optimized" and not "optimal" loadout, I know it's also a question of personel preferences. I'm playing on PC, my aim is pretty good (been playing shooters for over 15 years), and although customizing loadouts depending on the map is definitely a more competitive option, I prefer to get more used to my kits/weapons and don't bother customizing my loadouts every single game.

I don't want to do the full 4 loadouts in one post so I will just start with the assault loadout.

Assault

For me, the SCAR-H is a no brainer here, since it's one of the only two AR to kill in 2 bullets in hardcore, or 3 bullets at any range. If I shot first, there are good chances you are dead. The H-recoil is also perfect for those automatic shots at medium range to the chest, compensating a little bit for the recoil but not too much so that the 2nd bullet is an headshot. Because I go full automatic often, I'm using the potato grip and also the heavy barrel since I don't mind the recoil. I do strafe a lot when shooting at medium range, so the ergo grip could be useful there, but since I aim down sight 99% of the time (because you know, hardcore), the advantages are limited to the 40% decrease in base spread while moving. If strafing, it's even less, since I move slower, so I don't feel the difference if enough compared to the stubby/potato for automatic fire.

With that said, the SCAR-H is also good at range with the HB, and considering how many players I kill only because I see their flashlight or laser sight, there is no way I would use these on my primary. So it comes down to cranted ironsight or 2x mag, which also depends on my primary optic. For an AR and since I'm mostly playing conquest large, capturing flags, I prefer a good 1x sight (either the Coyote or Reflex, I don't like the Kobra or the other 1x mag on the SCAR-H). So the cranted ironsight is pretty much useless, which leaves me with the 2x mag. Surprisingly, I've been able to headshot a lot of people while single-tapping with the mag, so it's more useful than having nothing. One problem with the Coyote and the 2x mag is that the rectangle of the Coyote can ben seen in the 2x mag. I'm still unsure if that's enough of a reason to use the Reflex RDS instead, which fits perfectly with the 2x mag.

Now as for gadgets, defibrilator and first aid packs are just a no brainer here for me. First aid packs are just better suited to my playstyle than medkits since I always run and it's also a lot easier to heal my friends too, throwing the medpacks at them. The fact that I just press a button to throw one in front of me, still running while using it, it huge. Defibrilator because I'm a good team player and it also helps in Conquest when playing with other squads on the same objective.

Grenade: RGO impact. In hardcore, it's a one shot kill, it feels a lot better than the usual M67 frag nade (took me so much time to start unlocking nade until I actually unlocked the RGO). The minis aren't bad, but you can't escape a well-placed RGO. It's a no-brainer for me.

Secondary: I just unlocked the CZ-75. Things started to go pretty well with pistols once I got the G18 unlocked. I prefer it to the 93R. I have yet to unlock the magnum. I'm still not sure about this one. The SCAR-H only has 20+1 bullets and is good at most ranges, so I kind of just want something quick when I have 3-4 opponents in front of me at close range on a flag and can't finish them off with the 21 bullets of the SCAR-H. For this reason, I think I will probably stick with the G18 for my assault loadout. I use the Mini RDS and a suppressor on the G18. The suppressor can be useful when I'm coming from behind an ennemy just so that his teammates don't hear my exact position (still useful in HC I think).

So here we go for my assault loadout. Any suggestions or comments? Reflex RDS vs Coyote RDS is still a huge interrogation mark for me, and I wouldn't mind that much letting go the defibrilator but I just don't feel like there is any other relevant gadget. I don't really like the grenade launchers personally but I haven't tried them that much outside of test range.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "dnLL" (Mar 4th 2016, 1:05am)


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Friday, March 4th 2016, 8:56pm

Oh man this post reminds me of my COD days. I used to get uber into the loadouts, and I still do to an extent. Something I realized a while back was that in your head everything works great, but in game it is usually a different story. Another thing that I do when I make my classes is to start with my purpose first, then go from there. It seems like you play allot (150 hours since Christmas!) so you know how you play, and I would say that you are the run and gun always on the flag type.
So build your class around that.

I see that you like the SCAR-H and are obsessing over the attachments. That's half of the fun to me, but understand that what "feels" the best is probably what will work the best for you. Usually for aggressive play which results in CQC on a flag, the most open sight is best. So pick coyote. Also I cannot stress the ability to hip fire enough. I wish I was better at it, it will win you gun fights. I have heard the best attachments combinations are heavy barrel-ergo, and compensator-stubby. If you are moving allot, use that lazer for the hip fire benefit: if you are moving continually it will not matter much if anyone sees it.

I would also like to suggest the high ROF carbines, because of their CQC potential.

As for gadgets I would agree the med pack is for you. However I would switch the defibrillators with the launcher and use the grenadier perk for more grenades. I would like someone else to give insight to this but I do not think that an aggressive player benefits from stopping to revive others. If you do well with (which is different than liking) the RGO, use it. But because of the way I use grenades, I use the frag. It has a better chance of killing to me.

Your pistol should complement your style. I would pick fast to kill up close, so the 93R or the G18. I stress the hip fire skill and recommend a lazer. You may benefit from the more open field of view of an simple iron sight. Also, I would not pick a high damage low ROF gun for you.

I come to these conclusions based on things said on the forum and from personal experience. Remember: start with the your purpose and go from there, in-head is not the same as in-game, and go with what actually "feels" right, not what "stats" right.

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Saturday, March 5th 2016, 1:05am

Thanks for the reply! I will definitely get more into details and give you a more detailed answer, but are you playing hardcore? I noticed you talked a lot about hipfiring but for me in hardcore with no crosshair, it's pretty hard over let's say 20m, and because of how random my aim can be without any crosshair, I always felt like the lasers actually penalize me more than anything else. If we put apart the fact that it's easier to see me, the benefits of improving the spread values when hipfiring could actually be a disadvantage because I can hardly aim precisely without a crosshair. So having a bigger spread cone could actually save me (as weird as it sounds).

I have to say that I do a lot of maths and I know that there are other factors like the server tick rate and so on when choosing a weapon with a bigger ROF but I don't necessary want to go crazy about numbers either.

The FAMAS has a better TTK in hardcore at almost any range than the SCAR-H, but the damage model coupled with the lower stability for automatic fire and lack of versatility at long range actually make it kind of bad for me. That's usually the problems with stats, it doesn't tell you explicitly that it's harder to kill someone than with a SCAR-H, because TTK ratios are calculated with 100% accuracy at max RPM firing and that will honestly not happen often with the FAMAS at medium to long range. I tap fire a lot with the SCAR H at range and not needing that 3rd or 4th bullet to kill an enemy in hardcore is huge.

Coyote vs Reflex, I pretty much decided on the Coyote 100% of the time for my 1x sights as you recommended, whether or not I use the 2x mag accessory (in which the Coyote gets a little bit in the way). As for HB+Ergo instead of HB+Stubby, I did the maths and the 0.5 multiplier for ADS on the move, when multiplied again by 0.75 because I strafe, doesn't even make enough of a difference IMO to compensate the spread decrease added by the grips, whereas the stubby more than overcome this. If I was hipfiring more I could probably see it, but I just don't see people hipfiring at all over 20m in hardcore to be honest and I'm usually really quick on the trigger (I know that my actual KD ratio is pretty bad at 1.10 but I play the flags and I've been toying with a lot of different stuff too). The compensator is a no-no for me, I definitely don't mind the recoil on PC, I tend to get use to it and ultimately like it.

I will stick to automatic pistols for my assault kit as you recommended to finish people off when my SCAR-H run out of bullets (especially when a full squad is moving on me), I tend to prefer the G18 as of now.

Grenades... problem is I move a lot when using my assault loadout and I also play domination and CTF, and the timer on the frag nade is so long than even with the offer blast radius and damage model, even in hardcore, I had a hard time killing people with frag nades. The RGO just works so well for me that it's a no brainer for this kit. It's also the only kit I use it (more on this later). It's probably more a matter of preference and play style at this point anyway.

That brings me to the gadgets. I agree with you that the defibrillator is somewhat underwhelming and doesn't fit my playstyle that well. The problem is I didn't find any more useful gadget. The launcher isn't bad but I feel like a noob when using it and killing someone with it. I also hate so much getting killed by that thing. I played SOF2 in the past and I just learned to hate so much this type of grenade launcher because of how easy to use they were even for noobs. I don't know, I would probably have to give it some play time, but I overall don't like it. I'm using the defibrillator because it's the least evil of all the other gadgets IMO, and it actually helped me cap flags when using it smartly (ie. not reviving someone who just died before killing the enemies). It also gives a huge boost for the squad upgrades when reviving a squad member which is not negligible either.

That brings me to the squad perks/upgrades. Defensive is a no for me considering the last upgrade is useless in hardcore (no auto heal) and the suppression reduction isn't as important as it is in normal core when you are harder to kill. I don't think the armour by itself it worth that perk in a more where most guns either kill you in 2 or 3 shots with or without the armour. It helps at distance against weapons with a min damage of 15.4, making it 5 shots instead of 4, but as an assault player with the ability to heal, I don't feel it makes much of a difference. The medic perk is totally useless IMO, I never needed more medic kit packs, and the grenadier doesn't apply well without the launcher, so only the shadow and offensive perks are left. With the SCAR-H it's an easy choice at this point: more ammo and more grenades? Hell yeah, I need both, so offensive.

Also you talked about carbines. I'm using a carbine in another class, I feel the ARs (especially the SCAR-H and the Bulldog) brings something more into hardcore since they are the only automatic weapons to kill with 2 to 3 bullets at ANY range. Carbines can do 2 to 4 bullets (only the Ace) or 3 to 4 bullets (all the other carbines), so I don't think they are that much better at close to medium range when ADS. But I will get more into carbines when looking at my engineer/support loadouts next week.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "dnLL" (Mar 5th 2016, 1:11am)


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Saturday, March 5th 2016, 9:10am

Personally I don't play hardcore much because I'm playing Xbone and its easier just to have it auto pick a server, but I like to have each class have a weapon with the quickest ttk at a given range. Shotgun for close, dmr for mid, bipod mg for far, and of course a sniper for long range. That way I can choose a class based on the range I need to be dominant in. but if I had to pick one id say an assault with a scar and a shotgun attachment and a scoped magnum side. the scar is practically a dmr you get a decent shotgun and a gun with a scope not to bad really. I also love the coyote you can use the entire reticule at close range to compensate for recoil. You can really tell which way its drifting relative to your target much easier then the smaller reticules and at long range the negative space works at least okay. as for grenades I find that if I could kill it with a grenade I probably could have shot it. I like smoke for when you feel overwhelmed or you can use it to cover a revive with the defib though on hardcore I imagine a med pack would be better. I also think the defib is hard to use seeing as most people just die again right after respawn even with the smoke cover its especially sad because on normal they see who shot them and have the element of surprise thanks to the smoke but they still die.

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Saturday, March 5th 2016, 6:05pm

Thanks for the reply! I will definitely get more into details and give you a more detailed answer, but are you playing hardcore? I noticed you talked a lot about hipfiring but for me in hardcore with no crosshair, it's pretty hard over let's say 20m, and because of how random my aim can be without any crosshair, I always felt like the lasers actually penalize me more than anything else. If we put apart the fact that it's easier to see me, the benefits of improving the spread values when hipfiring could actually be a disadvantage because I can hardly aim precisely without a crosshair. So having a bigger spread cone could actually save me (as weird as it sounds).
Yes I play hardcore on PS3. Yeah do not hip fire at 20m, I am thinking maybe within 10m or less. I called hip fire a skill because it is very hard to do in hardcore due to the lack of cross hairs. To check the hip fire range of a gun I go to the test range and see how close I need to be to effectively knock down a target. I also agree with the large cone thing because if I choose to hip fire with a shotgun I do it within 10m and want the cone to be big. With an assault rifle I feel that it is very different since you are shooting one bullet at a time instead of buckshot. I would go with the tighter cone and force yourself to only hip fire for a few games.
I have to say that I do a lot of maths and I know that there are other factors like the server tick rate and so on when choosing a weapon with a bigger ROF but I don't necessary want to go crazy about numbers either.
Can the G18 kill fast? Yes. So higher ROF guns can kill faster in closer ranges, even though there are factors. I have a theory on high ROF guns which is that if you want to use high ROF, do it for CQC hip fire specifically, nothing else. If you at all are intending on engaging from a longer range, do not pick high ROF. That's what I go by.
Grenades... problem is I move a lot when using my assault loadout and I also play domination and CTF, and the timer on the frag nade is so long than even with the offer blast radius and damage model, even in hardcore, I had a hard time killing people with frag nades. The RGO just works so well for me that it's a no brainer for this kit. It's also the only kit I use it (more on this later). It's probably more a matter of preference and play style at this point anyway.
That brings me to the squad perks/upgrades. Defensive is a no for me considering the last upgrade is useless in hardcore (no auto heal) and the suppression reduction isn't as important as it is in normal core when you are harder to kill. I don't think the armour by itself it worth that perk in a more where most guns either kill you in 2 or 3 shots with or without the armour. It helps at distance against weapons with a min damage of 15.4, making it 5 shots instead of 4, but as an assault player with the ability to heal, I don't feel it makes much of a difference. The medic perk is totally useless IMO, I never needed more medic kit packs, and the grenadier doesn't apply well without the launcher, so only the shadow and offensive perks are left. With the SCAR-H it's an easy choice at this point: more ammo and more grenades? Hell yeah, I need both, so offensive.
I pick a field upgrade for the first item in the list, because I cannot count on having any other specific upgrade in the list at a specific time. I suggested the grenadier perk so you could have an extra RGO. The offensive perk does give more ammo but you need to be at level 2, so I only see it as a sprint perk. As for grenadier for the launcher I wouldn't even count on that since its so far down the line.
That brings me to the gadgets. I agree with you that the defibrillator is somewhat underwhelming and doesn't fit my playstyle that well. The problem is I didn't find any more useful gadget. The launcher isn't bad but I feel like a noob when using it and killing someone with it. I also hate so much getting killed by that thing. I played SOF2 in the past and I just learned to hate so much this type of grenade launcher because of how easy to use they were even for noobs. I don't know, I would probably have to give it some play time, but I overall don't like it. I'm using the defibrillator because it's the least evil of all the other gadgets IMO, and it actually helped me cap flags when using it smartly (ie. not reviving someone who just died before killing the enemies). It also gives a huge boost for the squad upgrades when reviving a squad member which is not negligible either.
I feel your disgust for the tube. I remember china lake from COD. Thing is, the one in BF4 is an extremely useful tool, if you can use it right which I cannot. The options for projectiles are pretty good: you can use smoke or flash bangs or make it into a shotgun which would be good for you if you need more ammo. Also you can put it under most assault rifles which ought to be good for quick access to the tool, allowing you to play at a faster rate.
Also you talked about carbines. I'm using a carbine in another class, I feel the ARs (especially the SCAR-H and the Bulldog) brings something more into hardcore since they are the only automatic weapons to kill with 2 to 3 bullets at ANY range. Carbines can do 2 to 4 bullets (only the Ace) or 3 to 4 bullets (all the other carbines), so I don't think they are that much better at close to medium range when ADS. But I will get more into carbines when looking at my engineer/support loadouts next week.
Yeah if you did go for a carbine I would suggest to go for about 800 RPM, hip fire, and only engage CQC. It does not seem like you are interested in giving up the capability of longer range engagements so maybe a carbine is not for you.

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Saturday, March 5th 2016, 6:58pm

as for grenades I find that if I could kill it with a grenade I probably could have shot it.
I feel the same way. So I usually do not use lethal grenades. I will run smoke or flair. Smoke for escaping or flair for confusing those ridiculous FLIR tanks. I treat the grenades as a tool, not a weapon.

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Monday, March 7th 2016, 8:21am

Thanks for the replies.

Just a note about the field upgrades: I do my best to get in a 5-man squad and usually talk a lot with my squad mates. Usually, as soon as someone starts talking in the squad, the squad starts to play more as a team with members helping each others. Since it works both ways there are no reasons not to. This is what I like the most in Battlefield, you will win games if you play well with your squad members and a whole squad can win the game by itself just because the other team is completely disorganized.

TL;DR: I usually go level 4 field upgrade every game so I definitely consider every level when picking upgrades, and for assault I feel like the speed bonus to start is perfect to get that first flag (which should already bring you nearly to level 2 field upgrade if you have been playing with your squad members for a map or 2).

This is also the main reason why I'm sticking to defibrillator right now.

Assault

SCAR-H
Coyote RDS
2x Magnifier
Potato grip
Heavy Barrel

G18
Mini RDS
Suppressor

Defibrillator
First aid pack
RGO Impact
Offensive

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Monday, March 7th 2016, 8:40am

This brings me to the Engineer loadout and now I can already say it's a complete mess and it's a loadout I only use when in a tank/scout (I don't even use it against tanks).

Currently: AK 5C, G18, RPG7v2, Repair tool, M18 Smoke and Mechanic.

What I would like to keep: the Repair tool, the RPG and maybe the mechanic field upgrade.

What I would like to change: everything else.

I'm kind of unsatisfied with this loadout. The problem is that I don't like that much being in tanks, I like infantry more, and it's not because I'm bad at it, I've done plenty of great scores with tanks or IFVs, enough so that I know what to do or not do to win fights against other armoured vehicles, but I'm really more an infantry guy (except for jets or chopper gunner). So I'd like to tune this loadout accordingly.

There are maps like Silk Road where I end up in a tank no matter what, I just try to find a friend that play with SOFLAM or with LGM and we totally own the map. But in these situations, I don't use much of my loadout anyway, besides the repair tool w/ field upgrade and maybe the RPG to finish off a tank when I'm the gunner but that's about it. I don't think I can really build a loadout for Silk Road but I would like to have a loadout versatile enough that I can use it outside a vehicle while still being able to repair my team vehicles when they need to (assuming I don't feel driving myself) and kill people.

I've considered DMRs too but I keep them for a latter class, but that could totally change too. I really like the versatility of the RPGs. Oh and PDWs... it's like my worst nightmare, I like to be versatile on the battlefield, I capture flags with every loadout, and while I don't expect to kill snipers with carbines, I like to be able to fight at a certain range too, this is hardcore so 2-4 bullets you are dead with carbines.

The G18 could be swapped for a 3x magnum probably, the AK 5C I'm unsure about, it's probably the most versatile carbine but it's definitely not the best one. Assuming I still go for 30+1 mag carbine, I don't need the G18 or shorty, and the 3x Magnum can snipe people (especially in hardcore).

I'm really open to suggestions on that one. As for the nades I have absolutely no idea, I've been switching back and forth. The smoke can cover me while repairing but that's about it since I've not been using this loadout enough outside of vehicles. I use smoke nades to capture flags or as a diversion with my support loadout, maybe it's still the best nade for an engineer too, I just need better weapons to make it work and start capturing flags with it.

The RPG takes skills to use (not like the M320 nade launcher lol but I'm biased!). Killing infantry with it in domination mode is also good.

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Monday, March 7th 2016, 6:33pm

There are some good infantry only hardcore servers. Some of the map designs turn into camp fests without vehicles but they can still be a fun change of pace.

For your engi loadout: I've been loving the cbj-ms lately. Seems accurate with great hipfire and 51 bullets. Unless I have a sniper rifle I always like to carry a sidearm that can explode mines. So a revolver or the DE. I prefer the velocity and drop of the smaw over the RPG, but I mastered the smaw, so been using the RPG. I wish BF4 had hard lines load out feature, because i swithc between armor crew, scrout crew, mine layer, and anti air load outs frequently.

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Monday, March 7th 2016, 7:30pm

Quoted

There are some good infantry only hardcore servers. Some of the map designs turn into camp fests without vehicles but they can still be a fun change of pace.

For your engi loadout: I've been loving the cbj-ms lately. Seems accurate with great hipfire and 51 bullets. Unless I have a sniper rifle I always like to carry a sidearm that can explode mines. So a revolver or the DE. I prefer the velocity and drop of the smaw over the RPG, but I mastered the smaw, so been using the RPG. I wish BF4 had hard lines load out feature, because i swithc between armor crew, scrout crew, mine layer, and anti air load outs frequently.

The problem with the CBJ-MS (and every other PDWs) is the damage model. That one especially does 14.3 damage at 50m or further. 4x15 equals precisely 60 (100% health on HC), but 4x14.3 doesn't cut it. So it's 5 bullets.

It's something l really want so avoid, 5 bullets in hardcore is a lot, DMRs have plenty of time to hit you twice at 100% accuracy when you are using a PDW and manage to get something like 66% accuracy. It's harder to be accurate at 700 rpm especially when you need 5 bullets.

Now an argument could be made about the 15.4 min damage model of the other PDWs or all carbines but the ACE 52, because at 15.4 you are getting inconsistencies based on the defensive field upgrade (body armor). This is also somewhat a problem with the SCAR-H when looking at ARs, at 21.6 damage, the armor gets 2.16 damage and 4 shots will be needed, the same as every other AR, but at 33 at close range it's still 30 damage and 2 shots, so I still feel it's more than worth it (I would be interested in field upgrade stats for hardcore though, ie. how many people run defensive, offensive and so on).

Anyway. 4 shots isn't as bad as 5 and this is what we need with PDWs at range in some circumstances. What does all of this mean? The ACE 52. This gun is 2 shots at close range (armor or not) and 4 shots at range (armor or not). It's not as good as an AR spread-wise and the SCAR-H has overall more power, but for engineers, I don't have access to ARs.

The problem? It's not as good long range as the AK5C. What about pairing it with the Magnum .44? Worst case scenario, a bullet of the ACE will deal 16.2 damage (18-1.8), the Magnum 33.75 (37.5-3.75). So 2 bullets of the ACE with a bullet of magnum and it's game over at 66.15 damage. With PDWs at 14.3, funnily enough, the same maths give 59.49 exactly, which leaves the opponent at 0.85% HP (1% HP).

I don't want to be a math guru but I think these numbers matter. TTK charts are always based on 100% accuracy, whereas my maths are more simple and just rely on the number of bullets that need to hit the target. I think this is what matters the most.

ACE 52 + Magnum, what do you guys think? I could even put a suppressor on the ACE, the muzzle velocity is already slow enough. It makes a good combo for small maps (Locker, Metro) where RPGs can actually be quite good, while still perfect when in a vehicle.

RPG vs SMAW: not gonna lie, I didn't try the SMAW at all. Statistically speaking, the difference is small: http://symthic.com/bf4-vehicle-stats
(I would have to try it, I don't mind the drop but the velocity is actually a strong argument.)

Edit: this video is probably why I picked the RPG: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n0ZnojcfW_Q

2 hits in the back of a tank vs 3, it's huge. Also, and that is personal preference, I prefer the look of the RPG and the reticle when ADS (I really have a problem in general with iron sights and the SMAW just reminds me of that).

This post has been edited 3 times, last edit by "dnLL" (Mar 7th 2016, 8:05pm)