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  • "WindyPlaice" started this thread

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Saturday, September 22nd 2012, 7:33pm

PP-2000, A review by a hipster, for hipsters.

The PP-2000


Introduction
The PP-2000 is certainly one of the lesser seen PDW's, and you don't see too many PDW's to begin with. While I understand its limitations I feel that a lot of people are overly put off by its most notable handicap - its slow rate of fire, and that they don't really give it a proper trial before discarding it as worthless. I will now attempt to convince you otherwise :) .

The Stats


There she is, lets begin with....

Recoil

It's always good to start on a high. The PP-2000 has extremely agreeable recoil, if any of you have fired the MP7 then you will know that it requires basically no vertical recoil compensation whatsoever, that is because the MP7 has a vertical recoil kick per shot of 0.12 (the lowest in the game). The PP-2000 on the other hand has 0.18 per shot which is 50% higher than 0.12, however the MP7 fires 46% faster so in this regard if you can master the MP7 (lol) then you can master this little firecracker too.

The horizontal recoil is very low for a PDW (or for any gun really) with a pull of 0.3 to the left and just 0.2 to the right, this can take some getting used to though because not many guns pull to the left whilst firing, but that's all it takes - a slight pull to the right and down made extremely easy by its low RPM of 650. This is the second lowest of all the PDW's (only the UMP can best it), combined with its generous damage over range (approximately the same as a naked carbine) means that you can engage targets more effectively from further away than:
1. The MP7 and P90 which both have frustratingly high horizontal recoil and low damage per bullet at mid range.
2. The UMP which can only match the PP-2000 out to about 21m before its terrible damage over range and criminally slow muzzle velocity hinder it.
3. The PP-19 because it's a joke.
4. The M5K which has the damage, but the stunningly high recoil and bad accuracy make it ineffective.
5. The AS-VAL because it isn't a PDW so :P .

Really only the PDW-R can best it, and best it it does. With higher muzzle velocity, lower initial spread and clearer iron sights it has the PP-2000 beat here (we will get it back later don't worry).


Spread


From high to high, the PP-2000 has bar none the tightest hipfire of any gun in the game.


Everybody knows that PDW's with laser sights have remarkable hipfire spread but I don't know how many people have actually run some of the numbers on just how good they are. Take this little paragon of the hipsters for example, The PP-2000 has a base hipfire spread of 1.0 if you are not moving, this is more accurate than an assault rifle with a laser sight attached. Put a laser sight on the PP-2000 and you have a hip spread of 0.5 (the same as with most PDW's, meaning that there is no accuracy benefit to going ADS if you are stationary), that is already insane - a mere 1 bullet less accurate than a stationary ADS carbine, add on that like the MP7 and P90 the PP-2000 only loses 0.06 spread per bullet and these 3 guns really become the final chapter in full auto hipspraying. This looks like the gun has the same accuracy as the P90/MP7 however the PP-2000 requires less bullets to hit the target which effectively means you kill your target less bullets into the burst, thus your final spread is superior to the other PDW's.


For the assault players out there maybe this will impress you.
Ever hipfired someone with your heavy barrelled M16A3?, of course you have. The M16+HB (my most common prey) has a starting hipfire spread of 3.0, the PP-2000 with a laser has 0.5. If I drop the hammer and mag dump you then my PP-2000 will start to lose accuracy, but how fast?. Well I lose 0.06 spread per bullet so 41X0.06=2.46, add on my starting spread of 0.5 and I am at 2.96 spread on my 41st full auto bullet, you meanwhile started slightly higher than that at 3....
Hell even compared to a laser sighted F2000 my first 8 bullets are all more accurate than your first (and even from then on I lose accuracy at a slower rate - 40% slower in fact).


Killing Power


Ok, it's not all good but it's not as bad as you think either.


On face value this looks to be a huge problem - 650 rpm with only average damage per bullet does not bode well for what is meant to be a close range killer, after all I'm sure most of us have tried to use AK-74's and the like up close. There are however many reasons why this is not so bad:


1. First off, compared to the P90 with its 900rpm (which noone seems to think kills slowly) the PP-2000 is actually not as far behind as you might think, because of the lower bullet damage the P90 is in reality only killing as fast as a 675rpm gun which does 25 damge (slower than a AUG..). This means that the P90 is only killing 4% faster than the PP-2000 if you land all of your shots with both guns, which is obviously not that much.


2. The drop off start, like most PDW's the PP-2000 only begins to lose damage at 12m instead of 8m. This means that if you catch a carbine/assault rifle user in that 8-12m sweet spot then the PP-2000 kills faster than an F2000 (865rpm equivalent) because the assault rifles require 1 extra bullet to kill in that zone.


3. 280 milliseconds (0.28 seconds) to kill is not that slow!!!, it may seem slow compared to other guns but it's not, you catch someone not looking and they are dead, catch a whole squad not looking and laugh because no PDW can efficiently kill 4 people with one clip like the PP-2000 can (low rpm, high damage per bullet, no need to ever stop firing, large mag).


How to play


Those were some facts that illustrate how 650rpm is not as bad as you might think, but what will really give you the edge is of course that you are going to be hipfiring all the time. This gun is not the M5K, you can't rely on outright killing power to brute force you way out of gunfights, the PP-2000 is a lot more flexible (more kills per clip, lower recoil, tighter spread..) but at close range you need to plan ahead.


The key to beating a carbine/assault rifle (I always play conquest on relatively large open gunship free maps like kharg/strike/noshahr so heavy barrel rifles tend to be my most common foe) is to position yourself at a range where you can consistently hit them from the hip but that they need to ADS to hit you. Here are some scenarios:


1. Within 4m. Bad, very bad, a lot will come down to aiming skill at this frantic range but for the most part you are too close to take advantage of your superior accuracy, they can still hit you reliably with their hipfire and will destroy with thier 750-900rpm weapons.


2. 4-8m. Not ideal but if they hipfire you they should be missing at least every other shot (especially if you are "dazzling" them), so an M16 which is only landing every other shot is effectively firing at 400rpm. Could go either way but I would rather have the PP-2000.


3. 8-12m. Excellent, as previously mentioned this is an amazing sweet spot for your damage. But also at this point hipfire just isn't going to do it for them (they can try but you will eat them up, the PP-2000 has no trouble landing 100% of its bullets at this range), they need to ADS, but here is the kicker - it takes 0.264 seconds to bring up a red dot sight to ADS but..... you kill in 0.28 seconds :evil: sooooo....good luck Mr tryhard.


4. 12-20m. Fine, you can definitely land a high percentage of bullets at this range but you will have to dance around a bit to make sure you don't get headrilled at the last second because they will probably get their sights up (although even the famas will take at least 0.25 seconds to kill you after he starts firing so you should have enough of a head start to win).


5. 20-40m. Targets of opportunity only. Despite being more apt at this range than the other PDW's you will still lose a straight out fight, get closer if you can by firing an rpg at his position and rushing or by flanking.


6. 40+m. Dude get closer and if you keep fighting from this range pick a rifle/carbine.


The Magazine


With 40 rounds in each mag and 25 damage per bullet the PP-2000 is tied with the P90 for "most kills per clip", I think you will find the 650rpm gun to be much more able to distribute its payload fairly into your future corpses. This is obviously a good thing, especially during a successful back rage.


The reload has been reduced in the latest patch and is now only 0.05 seconds slower than the MP7 with a bullet left in the chamber, not great but still it's on par with the competition. The long reload however (despite being reduced) is tragic, at 3.45 seconds this thing is slower than an MTAR, I consider this to be the guns worst feature but the slower rpm does at least make it easier to keep a bullet spare (but I would prefer the MP7 in this case because then I don't need to care).

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "WindyPlaice" (Sep 24th 2012, 11:24pm) with the following reason: Correcting typos


  • "WindyPlaice" started this thread

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Saturday, September 22nd 2012, 7:34pm

PP-2000 part 2 post too long

Attachments


Well thats all of the statsy maths stuff out of the way, on to the attachments.


Sight


Ironsights - These are not great but you shouldn't really be using them very often, they save on screen real estate so hipfiring should be a bit easier than normal.






Kobra/RDS - I use iron sights now but these do add some flexibility if you are still trying to get used to hipfiring.


Holo - Not a bad option, the american holo is quite small so it shouldn't hinder you too much from the hip and it's a much easier sight to use at range because of the greatly (strangely) lowered sensitivity compared to the kobra/rds sights.


IRNV - I used this as a training sight, it will punish you every time you try to ADS so it teaches you to rely on hipfire.


Extended mag slot


Extended Mag - Use it, don't use the flash suppressor ever, if you want the silencer use the P90.


Dazzle slot (remember to turn off at range when undetected)


Laser - Optimnal choice, gives a large benefit which obsoletes the need to ever ADS, practice aiming for the head at close range to increase your damage whilst blinding your victim.


Tactical light - A more...tactical...choice, if you want to use the gun like a bullpup and go everywhere ADS'd at 80% move speed then the tac light will offer superior blinding to the laser. If this is your play style though then I would recommend the PDW-R as the gun for you.


So really the choice is obvious: Laser, Ext mags, sight of your preference.


Pistol


I like to use pistols which deal the same damage per bullet as my primary to allow me to finish targets cleanly, conveniently enough the M9, MP443 and G17C have the exact same damage and drop off as the PP-2000, so pick your poison. I use the M9 tac (nice irons/ muzzle velocity better than 2 bullets imo).


Perk


You need to either be support or have access to sqd ammo, otherwise you have only 3 magazines.


Next priority is sprint followed by covr or expl if you need it for engineer.


Class


Honestly the assault gadgets with sqd ammo give you the greatest chance of a high score and K/D if thats your objective but this gun is great for engineers and C4 supports (who also get access to another perk).


My Loadouts


Engineer
PP-2000 - Iron sights, laser, ext mag
M9tac
Stigla/RPG
Rep Tool
Sqd ammo


Support
PP-2000 - Iron sights, laser, ext mag
M9tac
C4
Ammo
Sqd Sprint

I don't enjoy recon enough to play, the useful gadgets take you out of the action to much for me.


Reasons to use compared to other PDW's


1. UMP-45
Good: More kills per clip, superior damage/rpm at range, superior spread inc while moving (so unintuitive), faster muzzle velocity, lower vertical recoil.
Bad: Worse TTK within 8m, slower reload.


2. M5K
Good: More Kills per clip, superior spread inc, superior spread base hip/ADS, lower recoil vert/horizontal, not bugged.
Bad: Worse TTK up close until M5K becomes unmanageable, slower reload, slower muzzle velocity, not bugged.


3. P90/MP7
Good: Like half the horizontal recoil, same/less vertical recoil, greater damage at range, less overkill per target.
Bad: Less forgiving at close quarters due to rpm, lower muzzle velocity, slightly worse TTK at close range.


4. PDW-R
Good: Superior Hipfire, superior strafing spread, superior recoil, faster reload!, more kills per clip.
Bad: Inferior Iron sights, worse spread ADS stationary, worse TTK (except 8-12m), slower muzzle velocity.


5. PP-19
Good: All
Bad: None

Conclusion

This gun is not as bad as you think, it is rapidly catching up to my P90 as my middle ground PDW. It's low rpm may make it unforgiving but that just adds to the tension at close range, the potential is there (like with a shotgun) and I find it to be an absolute gem of a gun.

Plus there is always that fuzzy feeling of being the only guy on Caspian border using your gun .

Please let me know what you think, I haven't wrote anything this long before.

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Sunday, September 23rd 2012, 1:50am

The 2K is a nice weapon, I have 2K kills on it and it's my #1. It's always been a little underpowered but it's sexy looks and fairly unique advantages keep me comming back. Unfortunately the UMP and M5K are a bit OP and totally domminate the PDW class at the moment, but the PP2K did get some small buffs in the latest patch too which is nice. Of particular note is the damage curve - it's 12M DO Start and 13.7 min mean that it can out damage a stock carbine out to 36M and it's recoil and low spread increase facilitate excellent fully automatic fire. Essentially it's a full auto deathmachine between 9-30M or so. This is a good review IMO, the only thing I really disagree with significantly is the suppressor. The P90 doesn't sacrifice as much to get one, but the P90 also doesn't have the 2K's damage curve and the 2K also has one of the best suppressed sounds because it is incredibly quiet and a lot lower pitched than the MP7. You don't need the 50 rounds, and a suppressed 2K is more damaging and controllable at 15-20M or so than a suppressed P90. An extra note is sound. Sans Suppressor the PP-2000's sound is easily mistaken for an LMG (and is ABSOLUTELY ORGASMIC) which is a crafty way of decieving people.

Also I applaud you for the point about spread increase compared to the MP7/P90. The 650 RPM is actually an advantage for hipfiring in some respects. You don't need to fire as many rounds with the PP-2K, so spread doesn't get as big and less rounds are 'wasted' when you miss the target (and thus less spread increase before you get back on target). This is especially advantageous when hipfiring at 15M or so where misses are more common and the MP7/P90's H recoil causes a fair bit of 'missage' anyway!
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Sunday, September 23rd 2012, 2:03am

Pretty good review, paints the PP-2000 in a very interesting light.

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Sunday, September 23rd 2012, 2:10am

I was led to believe the PDW-R was the hipster weapon.
Now I am just confus ;(
How more will I be lied to until I am told the truth?

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Sunday, September 23rd 2012, 2:26am

Some irrelevancies and weird comparisons that put me off, but an alright review overall.
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Sunday, September 23rd 2012, 2:27am

Some irrelevancies and weird comparisons that put me off, but an alright review overall.


Name them, I'm curious. :)
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Sunday, September 23rd 2012, 2:37am


The PP-2000 has a base hipfire spread of 1.0 if you are not moving, this is more accurate than an assault rifle with a laser sight attached.

Don't see the point of this, as everyone knows ARs have bad HIP spread and it's no achievement for a PDW to beat it.

Ever hipfired someone with your heavy barrelled M16A3?, of course you have.

The M16+HB (my most common prey) has a starting hipfire spread of 3.0, the PP-2000 with a laser has 0.5. If I drop the hammer and mag dump you then my PP-2000 will start to lose accuracy, but how fast?. Well I lose 0.06 spread per bullet so 41X0.06=2.46, add on my starting spread of 0.5 and I am at 2.96 spread on my 41st full auto bullet, you meanwhile started slightly higher than that at 3....

These calculations... Yes, I have hipfired with my HB'd M16 but not only will I not make a habit of it I also will never go full-auto with all 30 rounds. ARs aren't meant for hipfiring and people know this, so I don't see the point of comparing a natural hipfirer to it... and to go into so much detail?

3. 280 milliseconds (0.28 seconds) to kill is not that slow!!!, it may seem slow compared to other guns but it's not, you catch someone not looking and they are dead, catch a whole squad not looking and laugh because no PDW can efficiently kill 4 people with one clip like the PP-2000 can (low rpm, high damage per bullet, no need to ever stop firing, large mag).
Doesn't sound very convincing to me, this passage seems very opinionated and I'd like it more if he compared the TTK instead of stating it (without emphasis) and then giving his opinion.


Apart from the tiny range differences that he talked about in the effective ranges bit, how to play bit, there were many things that stuck out to me in terms of language and structure. I know that that isn't the main thing to concentrate on in a weapon 'review', but it matters to me. A lot.
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This post by "Requisix" (Sunday, September 23rd 2012, 2:37am) has been deleted by user "Autosynthesis" (Sunday, September 23rd 2012, 2:38am) with the following reason: double post

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Sunday, September 23rd 2012, 3:00am

Comparrisons to the M16 are just a base point; something which everybody knows reasonably well and thus can relate to. Also provides emphasis through contrast. Compare it to the F2000's hipfire and you don't illustrate the point as well because they are (in a nutshell) fairly similar. Personally I don't think this is a problem, in fact I quite like it.

I don't really understand what you're criticism of .3 is so I'll pass on answer.

I'm a literature student and I honestly don't think there is a serious problem with this review - sure you could probably neaten up a few sentances here and there but it's not supposed to dethrone Shakespeare! Stop being so nitpicky lol, tis' a good review.
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