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Misnomer

Don't Prox Me Bro

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41

Thursday, June 27th 2013, 8:10pm

Current state of assault rifle balancing, slightly simplified and sorted by RPM. Performance in close - med - long range engagements. shit (0), bad (1), decent (2), good (3), great (4):

Source code

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
SCAR-L: shit - decent - good    5/12
AK-74M:  bad - decent - good    6/12
L85:     bad - decent - decent  5/12
AUG:  decent - decent - bad     5/12
M416: decent - great  - great   10/12
M16A3:  good - great  - good    10/12
F2000:  good -  bad   - shit    4/12
AEK:   great - decent - bad     7/12
FAMAS: great -  bad   - shit    5/12


If you can't see the issue, you probably work for DICE. Intentionally left out burst weapons and G3.

AEK, M16A3 and M416 cover all the niches. There is no reason to use a different weapon, one of these will get the job done and not totally let you down regarding everything else.


This is an interesting and probably accurate chart, but I wonder if you guys still rank the m416 too high just based on the numbers.

I am not sure why, but in game they do still feel completely different to use. If I pick up some medic's kit and find an AEK or 416 in my hands, I adjust to it to use it. If I pick up an M16a3, I just point and click...usually going on a 4 or 5 kill streak. I have looked at the numbers and the plots and there seems to be no reason for this based on what you guys have shown, but the m16a3 just feels incredibly easier to use.

According to your numbers, if the m16a3 was removed from the game today we would see no difference really because everyone would go straight to the m416 and that would be the new gun to complain about. That is probably true, but there is simply something about the base weapons that makes me wonder. I have just started going for the M4 dog tag recently after getting dogtags on 3 other carbines and I am amazed at some of the kills I get where with other guns I would have simply failed for making a poor decision.

Something about those guns that DICE decided to balance all the others around is still very different feeling. After not using them for so long, going back feels like I am not really playing. I am not adjusting or compensating, it is just right down the middle and it feels wrong to get so many kills that way.

Haemoglobin

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42

Thursday, June 27th 2013, 10:48pm

Just a quick edit:

I like that the weapons are (attempted) to be asymmetrically balanced.

That doesn't necessarily mean that I think the balance is quite right. Someone will always be mad about some weapon and then it will be over-nerfed. It's the way games go. Kill enough people with the AN-94 and people whine. Kill enough people with the L85 and they whine.

A lot of the hate towards the M16 is the perception of how easy it is to use. I would agree, it is easy. But at the same time I do like that there was some attempt at asymmetric use.

PS: people were mad at the FAMAS not because it was good (it was) but because it was so good they didn't get a chance to fight back. Same with the shotguns, people hate OHK or really high TTK weapons because it feels cheap, personally I ignore them because I like to use the appropriate weapon for the situation (AN-94/AEK).
I sprint outside my building and judder my way around the block, screaming obscenities at the neighbors before getting stuck on a small hedge and blacking out.
Prepares me perfectly for my in game experience.

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43

Thursday, June 27th 2013, 10:49pm

But... but where are shoties and launchers stats? :P

J0hn-Stuart-Mill

GW2 N00B... also old.

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44

Saturday, June 29th 2013, 12:21pm

But... but where are shoties and launchers stats? :P

So the SPAS is popular, and the USAS no longer popular. Other than that, shotguns have seen VERY little change from year 1 to year 2. As far as grenades and rpgs, the only real change is that now that stingers and iglas actually have a chance of hitting their targets, more than 1 person worldwide has reached 500 kills. Still the numbers are so low they aren't worth graphing. Normal RPGs and Javelins have stayed the same in their usage.

And to be honest, this is why I didn't re-do vehicle graphs either. Usage has stayed roughly proportionate. The nerfs to helis by removing gunner flares doesn't mean the heli is any less used, or less potent, it simply means heli play is more cautious, and now with more zoom optics. :) Weakening jet rocket pods has had no effect on jet dominance or usage, it's just harder to dominate the ground than it was before. Pretty much all the "new" vehicles are novelties except the tank destroyers, which I didn't have data for anyways.

It's good to ask about these various categories, and I did investigate them, but to my surprise, there was far less change than I expected to see.

If you want to review all of the old categories like shotguns, rpgs, explosives, and vehicles, check out the old threads. Very little has changed all things considered.

Vehicle Popularity by Platform (July 2012)
Weapon Popularity by Platform v1.0 (June 2012)
My father used to say, We find our true friends on the Battlefield! - J0hn Snow


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45

Thursday, August 8th 2013, 2:12pm

* Console still sees some relevance with the F2K, and the AUG.
This is strange indeed, from my personal experience, I had so many prejudices against AUG A3 before starting to use it: it has low RPM, bad first shot multiplier etc, but I do so well with it, and one of my friends that has mastered all assault rifles, uses it as his go-to assault rifle. I get killed by AUG A3 more often than by M16A3, something to be jealous about, ay PC players :thumbsup: . It is almost like every bullet is on target somehow. On the other side, none of the weapons I used has disappointed me to the extent of L86A2, the concepts of just getting hitmarkers, bad hit registration were unknown to me before I equipped that thing (special shoutout to bolt action like hipfire with heavy barrel equipped). I swear that weapon is bugged on PS3, bullets just do not seem to kill for some reason.

bboypaktailo

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46

Sunday, August 11th 2013, 11:26am

^Confirmed

I'm only proud of my BF3 stats. I've barely played BF4.
I am a proud member of the Church of The One True Tohsaka. Our one and only Goddess!

Spoiler Spoiler

Starting the usual old members style of putting random quotes in signatures
You go up to a girl and say you're part of the most elite Battlefield 3 forum.
instasex.

This is Symthic: Game Science not Symthic : I felt it in my balls.

How to fix hitreg:
1. Go to server browser
2. Join 3rd world country server with 40000000 ping
3. Enjoy

Spoiler Spoiler

And.... I banged the fucking computer box yet again last night.... She had moved it a bit, but not to a better spot <.<

WAT. YOU BANGED IT?

All those open ports where just too much temptation for him...

Now this section is woowee special. This, is when DaRubester is drunk.
I think I should sacrifice part of my sigs just for when Rube is drunk.



DOOOIT MANG. ILL REP U NBRO



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VincentNZ

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47

Sunday, August 11th 2013, 1:17pm

Nice writeout, I had not seen that thread before.

I wonder though, whether the 1600 kills threshold is still too high. Right now I would only count towards the AR graph with my 5000 F2000 kills, and I do play a lot. I reckon a threshold somewhere above 750 would be better, as many play for the mastery dogtags and then decide what they are going to use. With 1600 kills you leave out an awful lot of players. I do not know though whether you would see something different. I assume though that people doing 1600+ kills with one weapon, are likely people who pondered stats around and chose the best one, the amount of players using "hipster"guns might be higher too. With a lower threshold you might find more people that use a weapon that they are actually comfortable with.

J0hn-Stuart-Mill

GW2 N00B... also old.

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48

Saturday, August 17th 2013, 9:19am

With 1600 kills you leave out an awful lot of players.

Sadly, that is precisely the point.

Since I can't get ALL weapon data, say, from the last 12 months. Since I can't get the number of players, number of kills with each gun, etc, then the best I can to is choose thresholds.

It's not perfect, but what it does show is which guns are used the most effectively. I understand the typical player will only register one or two guns at or above this threshold, but that's the point! I need to show what players find to be extremely effective, and graph that.

Demize99 tweeted back to the Symthic twitter account after seeing my graphs, and I hope that looking at them I can be one tiny part of encouraging DICE to balance guns more on distance of likely engagement, than how it is currently, where heavy barrel makes all of the guns pretty much equally accurate, and therefore the tiebreaker is ROF. In an ideal weapon balance system, you'd never have a gun so versatile that it is used by more than 25% of players playing a given kit.
My father used to say, We find our true friends on the Battlefield! - J0hn Snow

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "J0hn-Stuart-Mill" (Aug 17th 2013, 9:25am)


VincentNZ

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49

Saturday, August 17th 2013, 7:32pm

With 1600 kills you leave out an awful lot of players.

Sadly, that is precisely the point.

Since I can't get ALL weapon data, say, from the last 12 months. Since I can't get the number of players, number of kills with each gun, etc, then the best I can to is choose thresholds.

It's not perfect, but what it does show is which guns are used the most effectively. I understand the typical player will only register one or two guns at or above this threshold, but that's the point! I need to show what players find to be extremely effective, and graph that.

Demize99 tweeted back to the Symthic twitter account after seeing my graphs, and I hope that looking at them I can be one tiny part of encouraging DICE to balance guns more on distance of likely engagement, than how it is currently, where heavy barrel makes all of the guns pretty much equally accurate, and therefore the tiebreaker is ROF. In an ideal weapon balance system, you'd never have a gun so versatile that it is used by more than 25% of players playing a given kit.

Yeah I do understand your point and I would not want to minimize the statistic meaning of your graphs. Must have been a lot of work to do. I just wondered about how the graphs would look if it really had included all players. Right now I'd say it is mainly people that play foremost one class, and the kill threshold will probably mean that they have reasons to choose their gun (like I am choosing the F2000 because I like more accurate shooting while I am moving, or the people that use the M16 because it delivers the jack of all trades). So we are probably looking at people with 600 hours or more. I wonder though what kind of person, who mostly plays support really has that masochistic patience to only use the LSAT. :D

I guess with a lower threshold it would balance out a bit more, since you would see more F2000, L85A2 and SCAR-L Assaults simply because of the assignments. So I would say DICE did this alright. I hope they continue balance and differences between the guns by creating incentive to use other than your favourite guns.

But you are right the HB flattens out the differences between ARs, or making some guns obsolete to a point, the HB works way better as a balancing tool on LMGs and Carbines, where you can see a way more even pattern.