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  • "xFLOPSHOOTERx" started this thread

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Monday, September 17th 2012, 4:41pm

benefit to balanced horizontal recoil?

i've often wondered why i feel more comfortable with certain weapons, and have looked at the stats again and again trying to come up with a constant among the guns i generally do well with. my preferred weapons:

Assault: L85A2, SCAR-L, AUG A3 (all with RDS/HB)

Engineer: A91, G36C, QBZ-95B (again, all with RDS/HB)

what i have found is that every single one of those guns has perfectly balanced horizontal recoil. as my 0.9 KDR and 15.5% accuracy stats suggest, i struggle with aiming consistently. my question to all you statisticians is this: does the evenly balanced horizontal recoil actually benefit the user as the ADS spread increases with each successive round fired in a fully automatic burst? as the crosshairs bloom, will the gun bounce back the other way to give more of a circle shaped cone of damage?

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Monday, September 17th 2012, 4:52pm

does the evenly balanced horizontal recoil actually benefit the user as the ADS spread increases with each successive round fired in a fully automatic burst?

In a nutshell, maybe. From one round to the next, you have a 50% chance of the next landing to the right or to the left of the previous round.

In the general case, it's a definite yes. You're going to get a bell curve of possible horizontal recoil results; basically, you're going to get a lot more 0.00s when totaling up all of the horizontal recoil values than, say 1.50s.
Basically, label the bottom axis on the image below "Total Recoil Value" and set the 0 at where the hump of the curve is. Then set the vertical axis as "Probability." It's slightly abstract, but that's the best summary I can give you.



In general, I prefer weapons that drift (have uneven left and right recoil values). Ironically, I find them easier to control than drift-less weapons. The recoil lets you predict how to pull to make it more likely that the next round will hit. On average, weapons with drift have lower recoil totals, which means that if you can counter the drift, there's less randomness in your recoil. Or at least, that's how it feels to me.
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This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Nick 30075" (Sep 17th 2012, 5:02pm)


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Monday, September 17th 2012, 4:58pm

Guns that consistently pull in one direction or the other are inherently easier to control because the recoil is predictable. I used to think balanced recoil would be desirable but I realize now that predictability is the most important aspect of recoil and you lose predictability when there is significant horizontal recoil in both directions. That said a lot of the guns you listed are very controllable due to the low ROF but a higher ROF weapon with consistent horizontal pull is better IMO.

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Monday, September 17th 2012, 4:59pm

I like weapons with balanced horizontal recoil as well.

Nick put it in the very technical terms, but in general your recoil is going to go up in a sort of zigzag. So if you have your aim directly on target, all the shots should hit (depending on the range and spread). This differs from weapons with drift, because unless you're good at compensating for recoil, you'll need to fire more bursts at range than you would with a weapon that has less horizontal recoil.

I'm a fan of the SCAR-L, and with that gun if you aim at the legs, the recoil kicks you up to the torso and all your bullets will be on target.

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Monday, September 17th 2012, 5:08pm

AUG doesn't have even recoil. But yes, the guns you listed do require 0 correcting, which is why they are so popular on console as opposed to PC.
A guns horizontal recoil can be as low as the lowest value with correcting. But you can only correct general recoil, as even H.recoil guns have no general recoil, you can never stop them from wobbling. Take the M16; with 0.1/0.4 it can be reduced to 0.1/0.1 if you pull 0.3 to the left. L85 however has 0.3/0.3, unless you're a superhuman that can compensate for the recoil of every separate shot prior to the next shot firing, you will always have that moderate 0.3/0.3 wobble. This is also the reason the M16 nerf wasn't really a nerf. I think I speak for everybody when I say that 0.15/0.35 would have been preferred, as even with compensation, the best recoil it could have would be 0.15/0.15. That's 50% more wobble than it did have/still has.

Anybody who can even remotely compensate for recoil knows that the M16 "nerf" was a joke. 90% of them wouldn't admit it though.

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Monday, September 17th 2012, 5:14pm

I like weapons with balanced horizontal recoil as well.

Nick put it in the very technical terms, but in general your recoil is going to go up in a sort of zigzag. So if you have your aim directly on target, all the shots should hit (depending on the range and spread). This differs from weapons with drift, because unless you're good at compensating for recoil, you'll need to fire more bursts at range than you would with a weapon that has less horizontal recoil.

I'm a fan of the SCAR-L, and with that gun if you aim at the legs, the recoil kicks you up to the torso and all your bullets will be on target.
your post made me realize something else that may be helping me. i've noticed that when i'm in game, i tend to run with my on-screen crosshairs low for some reason. it's something i've been trying to correct, as it would seem that having your aim already at chest level when you encounter a bad guy would be to your benefit. but for some weird reason i ALWAYS catch myself with those darn crosshairs too low. i wonder if running the balanced horizontal weapons helps me overcome that bad habit?

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Monday, September 17th 2012, 5:21pm

AUG doesn't have even recoil. But yes, the guns you listed do require 0 correcting, which is why they are so popular on console as opposed to PC.
A guns horizontal recoil can be as low as the lowest value with correcting. But you can only correct general recoil, as even H.recoil guns have no general recoil, you can never stop them from wobbling. Take the M16; with 0.1/0.4 it can be reduced to 0.1/0.1 if you pull 0.3 to the left. L85 however has 0.3/0.3, unless you're a superhuman that can compensate for the recoil of every separate shot prior to the next shot firing, you will always have that moderate 0.3/0.3 wobble. This is also the reason the M16 nerf wasn't really a nerf. I think I speak for everybody when I say that 0.15/0.35 would have been preferred, as even with compensation, the best recoil it could have would be 0.15/0.15. That's 50% more wobble than it did have/still has.

Anybody who can even remotely compensate for recoil knows that the M16 "nerf" was a joke. 90% of them wouldn't admit it though.
my inability to be successful with ANY weapon that has a strong preference to pull to one side or the other tells me that i am not good at compensating for horizontal recoil. i have no problem apparently compensating for the vertical recoil, no matter how high it may be, since i run HB on nearly everything.

on a side note, how many of you play with the up/down look inverted, i.e. to look up you pull back on the stick? everybody i know tells me my brain is not wired correctly :huh:

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Monday, September 17th 2012, 5:24pm

For short bursts, symmetrical is just as good as asymmetrical as long as the have the same width (L+R). For long bursts, things become DICE and it is hard to give an easy and correct expression. The M16A3 does really good, but so does the G3A3. The AK74M is much worse, despite only having a little more recoil then the G3A3 or the same width as the M16A3.

When you say asymmetric recoil is easier to predict, you are wrong however. The M16A3 is so easy to predict because there is almost no variance in where it will go. But if you have a look at the AK74M or AUG, try to predict where exeactly it will go. You get anything between only upwards and strongly to one side. So what you do is compensate for a little to one side. With a symmetric recoil weapon you get anything between a bit left and a bit right (unless you use an A91, which has crazy recoil values), what you do is very easy: Don't compensate for left or right at all. More technically:

You compensate a certain angle per shot, what the weapon will give then you is some variance around that. With the G3 the compensation is 0 per shot, with the AK74M it is 0.05 per shot.

Don't call symmetric recoil bad because DICE can't give the M16A3 some serious recoil.
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  • "xFLOPSHOOTERx" started this thread

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Monday, September 17th 2012, 6:04pm

With a symmetric recoil weapon you get anything between a bit left and a bit right (unless you use an A91, which has crazy recoil values), what you do is very easy: Don't compensate for left or right at all.
my point exactly. the symmetric recoil weapons makes it so you don't have to compensate side-to-side at all. the gun does all the work for you. they seem to be so predictable that the only thing i really have to do is push down on the stick to keep it from bucking up. less multi-tasking ! :thumbsup:

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Monday, September 17th 2012, 8:59pm

balanced horizontal recoil makes the weapon harder to control, since there's less you can do to "compress" the recoil pattern. this is why ultimately the AEK and MTAR are more accurate than the F2000, for example. bullet spread have surprisingly little impact on accuracy within 80-100 meters; it's all recoil within that range. at least, that's what i've found.

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