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The McGoat

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11

Monday, July 29th 2013, 7:58pm

Sooo let me get this straight... The original argument against the foregrip was that it increased spread, a problem only felt at longer ranges. Now foregrip + Hbar proved to be more accurate at those ranges and there is a massive amount of evidence to support that. So now you have turned the argument completely around saying that the foregrip makes guns less accurate at close range? The same ranges that the increased spread is completely unnoticeable? Let's put it this way, the side to side recoil is much more of a factor AT ALL RANGES than spread itself. At close range, bullets are going to be landing almost exactly where the crosshairs are pointing due to fact that spread hasn't really had a chance to deviate bullet paths by much in the short time they are travelling through the air. Thus, less side-to-side recoil is far more beneficial at close range, and as proven in the past, less side-to-side recoil is more beneficial at long range than a simple reduction in aimed spread without the foregrip.

Labby

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12

Monday, July 29th 2013, 8:02pm

actually it does matter.... 20 meters, if you miss the first 1 or 2 shots, you need a burst or two usually to minimize the kill time ...
What is that "cone" thing you mentioned? You mean like when you shoot while ADS-ing, then knife after 1 bullet (without releasing mouse button), then you can see the hip fire "cone" is very tight ? If this is what you meant, actually it should be twice as big with the foregrip.

When you shoot, your bullets don't go exactly where you aim due to a combination of spread and horizontal recoil. Rather they travel somewhere within a cone with its tip at you. This cone scales linearly. A tighter cone of fire will always be more accurate than a wider one regardless of range.

Take for example the M16A3. With Hbar, its first shot base spread is 0.05. Your first shot will land within 0.05 degrees of your target. Horizontal recoil is .1/.4, which when perfectly compensated becomes .25/.25. Spread increase is .1, so the spread of the second shot will be 0.15. Assuming worst case (maximum horizontal recoil value + maximum spread in same direction) the farthest your second shot can land from your initial point of aim is .25 + .15 = .4 degrees.

Now add the foregrip. First shot base spread bumps up to 0.075. Horizontal recoil is reduced to .075/.3, which averages to .1875/.1875. After spread increase, second shot spread will be 0.175. Maximum deviation from your initial point of aim on the second shot: .1875 + .175 = .3625 degrees.

These measurements are angular, which means they can be used to easily find how far off target you can be at a certain distance. Max distance off target = Distance to target * tan(max deviation)

Using the M16 example, your first shot will land within 1.7cm of your pointy of aim at 20m with Hbar alone. Adding the foregrip will increase this to 2.6cm.

However on the second shot the benefits of the grip become apparent. With no grip, the second shot can land up to 14cm off your initial point of aim at 20m, however with the grip, the farthest off your shot can land is 12.7cm.

Bursts longer than two bullets magnify the benefits of the grip even more, as they small base spread advantage of Hbar alone is largely negated by spread increase, while the recoil benefits of the grip remain constant.
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Aenonar

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13

Monday, July 29th 2013, 8:05pm

Not sure what test you've read.. Rezals test is impartial to ranges and my test is definitely impartial to all ranges, and FG+HBar still comes out on top

Attachment Combinations - Numerical Benefits

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(14:06:57) Riesig: I should stop now. People might get sig material again

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14

Monday, July 29th 2013, 8:28pm

can someone test this for 10, 20, 30 meters ? and of course taking the width of the soldier as a factor.

Labby

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15

Monday, July 29th 2013, 8:36pm

can someone test this for 10, 20, 30 meters ? and of course taking the width of the soldier as a factor.

I just did this for you in my post above. I gave you the angular deviation, and the formula to find distance off target with respect to range. I even worked out the 20m data for you. If you want to find the distance off target at other ranges it's a matter of simple algebra.

Hint, to find distance off target at 10m, divide distance off at 20 by 2. To find it at 30, multiply the 20 results by 1.5.
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Maveco

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Monday, July 29th 2013, 9:29pm

Shouldn't the distance x dispersion be a linear problem with both H-Bar and H-Bar+FG converging to the same value with the lim(distance->0)?

Labby

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17

Monday, July 29th 2013, 9:34pm

Shouldn't the distance x dispersion be a linear problem with both H-Bar and H-Bar+FG converging to the same value with the lim(distance->0)?

Exactly.

Spread and recoil are both angular. Distance off target increases linearly with distance to the target. It doesn't matter if the deviation comes from spread or recoil, lower total deviation will always make you more accurate at both long and close range.

Foregrip + Hbar always hurts you first shot accuracy, but for the vast majority of weapons it helps your accuracy on the second and following shots.
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Maveco

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18

Monday, July 29th 2013, 10:10pm

Due to the linearity of the variables the answer one must look for is the intended burst lenght, for 1-round (semi-auto) it's H-Bar only but as the number of bullets-per-burst increases, the H-bar+FG combo surpasses the initial deviation. the accuracy difference between H-Bar alone vs H-Bar+FG diminishes linearly with the range, converging onto the same value at zero meters

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Maveco" (Jul 29th 2013, 10:16pm)


The McGoat

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19

Tuesday, July 30th 2013, 2:05am

People should really argue with what they know, not what they think they know. Especially when these people try to debunk a proven reality. (nothing personal against anyone, just this is not the first time we have had to explain stuff like this)

NoctyrneSAGA

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20

Tuesday, July 30th 2013, 3:42am

Hi
So the thing I noticed, the "final accuracy" (spread*random recoil) was tested only for 1 distance when moving, and another 1 when standing.
Now, for long range shots, like 80m, the side to side recoil is a big factor. the width of the enemy is very small, so it can get you off target very easily.
But for shorted ranges, it matters much less. in short range, it actually doesn't matter, if you aim for the center, the side-to-side recoil will not get you off target.
But because of the foregrip, you will have to burst twice as much, thus have lower ROF, and miss some more shots. HB cures this.
This should be re-tested for different ranges.
For example, I believe if someone is playing high mouse sensitivity, like 4inch/360 or less, he will be playing more aggressive and get into much shorter range fight. This guy will do better without the foregrip, (An assumption that is not true for all situations) it will make him kill faster (miss less because of better spread, whereas the side-to-side recoil will not actually be enough to get him off targets). And I don't need to tell you how many times in short fights, you end up winning with 0-20% HP, so the slightly faster ROF (less bursts)/1 more bullet that will hit only with the foregrip, will be the difference.HB cures this.
Also, even if you like to play longer ranges, with low mouse sensitivity, but you actually end up getting most of your deaths at short ranges, you might be better without foregrip as well. <- How?
Also, if someone finds it too hard to do those super fast 2-4 bullets bursts with high ROF guns, maybe the rapid clicking is too hard, maybe the first bullet multiplier prevents him to do super fast and short bursts (hard with low mouse sens! much easier with high actually), he will need to care about spread a lot more than someone who does burst a lot and very fast.


I play with 2inch/360. Horizontal recoil cannot be perfectly compensated for. There can be a general trend, but not truly accurate patterns that can be countered. The FG+HB is still the best attachment by far. It's almost as if your analysis assumes that players are not controlling recoil at all. The spread decrease offered by the HBAR COMPLETELY nullifies the spread increase of the Foregrip. Aggregately, the FG+HB combination makes you more accurate than HB alone in most situations by reducing horizontal movement and tightening your spread. This is proven with numbers and many diagrams. What people do here is statistical analysis. If players are not able to able to control their bursts, their recoil, or their aim, it is not a fault in the numbers. Of course, players should choose what does best for them but statistically speaking, but FG+HB is the best combination BY FAR.
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