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  • "Autosynthesis" started this thread

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Tuesday, February 14th 2012, 5:15pm

Auto's Guide to PDWs

Hey guys

A little while ago I wrote a guide to PDWs; it's not definitive by any means but I thought I'd repost it here as it might interest some of you. I'm interested to hear what you think of it; I'm going to be extending it soon to include more detailed information about the spread and recoil of each weapon. It was origionall posted on my Clan site - here: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.systematic-gaming.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=459" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.systematic-gaming.com/module ... opic&t=459</a><!-- m -->

If this is the wrong place to post, sorry!

Auto’s Guide to Personal Defence Weapons in Battlefield 3

I’m something of an analytical stats whore when it comes to weapons in any video game, and Battlefield 3 is no exception. In my opinion one of the most interesting weapon groups in this game is the PDWs as there is great variation between their stats in terms of both recoil and damage; and their all kit utility allows for a diverse range of strategies. Just a warning; this guide looks longer than it acctually is! All weapon statstics obtained from the Symthic.com BF3 Damage Charts: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://symthic.com/?s=bf3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://symthic.com/?s=bf3</a><!-- m -->" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What is a PDW?

Before I start, I will include a short introduction to Personal Defence Weapons as a group. PDWs are Primary weapons available to all 4 kits, and they specialise in close range combat. All PDWs are fully automatic, unlike the other all kit weapon group the Shotguns. Most are unlocked via ranking up in level rather than gaining points with a specific class; althought the MP7 is a Co-Op unlock and the PP-19 is unlocked via a Back to Karkand assignment. In terms of gameplay they could be describes as the bridge between the Hanguns and Engineer Carbines, and as such are excellent weapons to use in close range situations. They generally do quite low damage at range, although the actual values vary greatly within the group unlike most other weapon categories in the game.

Why use a PDW?

PDWs excel at close range and allow players to be very aggressive in their playstyle as such. Each PDW has very unique advantages which makes them a very fun and interesting group of weapons to use; although they all have excellent hipfire and are very mobile. PDWs are excellent for Guerrillas and Flankers as they are quite stealthy and well suited for fast paced raids on enemy territory. The classes which benefit most from the PDWs are Recon and Support. As Recon, a PDW allows you to make use of your gadgets like the Spawn Beacon and MAV at close range which can make for very effective, sustained attacks on enemy positions with intel gained from the MAV and the Spawn Beacon giving a backup plan if it goes wrong at first. As Support, it is generally best to use C4 with your PDW; this essentially recreates the Spec Ops class from Battlefield 2 and is an incredibly versatile setup as long as you stay close to the action. In general, PDWs reward aggression, reflexes, attention and tempo but punish players for lagging behind and not analysing the situation of the battle in order to position themselves effectively.

PDW Attachments

Unfortunately there is very little choice when it comes to Attachments for the PDWs as they lack options like the Foregrip or Heavy Barrel. This does allow the user to appreciate the base weapon’s recoil patterns more though and as such can actually make them more interesting to use. They can fit most optics up to 4x magnification, although the PSO-1 is only available to the AS VAL because of the scope’s size. In the second slot, all PDWs can equip either a Laser Sight or Flashlight. Both of these attachments should only be turned on in a close quarters situation to avoid giving position away, and the choice between them is very much a personal preference; the laser allows faster kills from the hip and the Flashlight gives extra time to kill whilst the enemy is blinded. The third attachment slot presents 3 options; the Suppressor and either the Flash Suppressor or Extended Magazine. The choice between tertiary attachments is often the most difficult when using a PDW as they provide the most significant alteration to the weapon's handling, and the size of the improvement each attatchment makes can vary from weapon to weapon (IE some suppressors are quieter, and some Extended mags are bigger).

PP-2000

Unlocked At: Rank 7
Max-Min Damage: 25-10
Rate of Fire (RPM): 650
Mag Size: 20 (40 with Extended Mags)
Reload Full/Empty (Seconds): 2.55-3.50
Fire Modes: Auto/Semi Auto


The Russian PP-2000 is usually the first PDW players lay their hands on, and is a generally well rounded weapon as such. The PP-2000 has moderate but very manageable recoil, and will generally perform best if the shooter develops a 2 round burst for firing it at all but the closest of ranges. Using the 2 round burst technique makes this Russian SMG a very controllable weapon. Whilst the PP-2000 is quite effective with the suppressor equipped, the Extended Magazine attachment is generally a better choice. The combination of a 650 RPM, controllable recoil and 40 round magazine means that the weapon can comfortably take down 3-4 enemies at close-medium range using just one magazine. Because of the weapon’s reasonably slow RoF, the extended magazine can last for a very long time in combat without a reload (which is relatively quick anyway). The PP-2000’s Iron sights are precise but a little bit obstructive so many may prefer to use Holographic or Red Dot Optics once unlocked, although this is purely a personal preference. If you are used to the PP-2000 from Bad Company 2; expect a shock because BF3’s iteration is a very different weapon although it does support a similar playstyle.

UMP-45

Unlocked At: Rank 16
Max-Min Damage: 25-12.5
Rate of Fire (RPM): 600
Mag Size: 25
Reload Full/Empty (Seconds): 1.85-2.70
Fire Modes: Auto/2 Round Burst/Semi Auto


This handsome German SMG’s most attractive trait is its accuracy. Whilst it has the slowest RoF in its category, its 2 round burst mode provides very good accuracy and the weapon is generally very easy to control because of it’s mostly vertical recoil, and the least horizontal recoil of any PDW. It’s slow RoF and slightly larger magazine than most other 20 round PDWs makes it very good for taking down multiple enemies at close-mid range without reloading. However, it’s reload time is absolutely fantastic and is one of the fastest in the game so the UMP-45 is excellent for continuous firing. The Iron Sights on the UMP-45 are quite comfortable to use at close range but they are not particularly precise so can hinder the shooter at ranges of 30 metres or more. Whilst often dismissed because of it’s slow RoF, the UMP is still a very effective weapon and allows the user to be more surgical than with guns like the MP7 or P90.

PDW-R

Unlocked At: Rank 32
Max-Min Damage: 25-12.5
Rate of Fire (RPM): 750
Mag Size: 20 (30 with Extended Mags)
Reload Full/Empty (Seconds): 2.50-3.40
Fire Modes: Auto/3 Round Burst/Semi Auto


The PDW-R is a very unique bullpup PDW both in terms of aesthetics and recoil. Whist firing, it tends to kick to the right which can make is quite inaccurate when firing at longer ranges and as such is better used when attacking enemy flags or MCOMs. Its RoF is not as high as some other PDWs like the MP7 but it’s high damage offsets this. It’s RoF and Damage provide a nice balance between the PP-2000 and the MP7 and thus is quite an easy PDW to use. The PDW-R’s iron sights are rather average and very similar to those of the P90; they should pose no difficulty for close range firing but are not very precise so can be a hindrance at longer ranges. Some players may enjoy using the 3 round burst mode on this gun; although at medium range the 3rd bullet tends to go somewhere to the right of the target. For this reason it is recommended that Semi-Automatic mode is used for engagements over 30-40 metres or so. In terms of attachment, the choice is not as easy as with some other PDWs. The extended magazine only increases ammo capacity to 30 rounds from the base 20; but the suppressor is not as quiet as some other PDWs. Both are useful however, a good rule is to choose suppressor for attacking to hide your flanks and Extended mags for anything else to allow you to take down another enemy without reloading. This is quite a well-rounded PDW, and is best treated as a P90 with a smaller magazine but higher damage.

P90

Unlocked At: Rank 40
Max-Min Damage: 20-10
Rate of Fire (RPM): 900
Mag Size: 50
Reload Full/Empty (Seconds): 2.50-2.90
Fire Modes: Auto/Semi Auto


The P90 is possibly the easiest PDW to use for attacking enemy territory because of its excellent RoF and huge magazine size. However, it can be fairly difficult to control over distance because of its recoil which is a lot ‘jumpier’ than most other PDWs. This coupled with the fact that it takes 10 bodyshots to kill at range relegates this weapon to a purely Close Quarters role. Its Iron Sights are rather average, and quite similar to those of the F2000 which is no surprise as it is manufactured by the same company. The P90’s suppressor is a bit louder than weapons like the MP7 or PP-19 so it isn’t as stealthy as the aforementioned weapons and thus is not as suited to flanking – especially because of its recoil which can mean you have to fire a lot of rounds and draw attention. Despite this, the Belgian P90 is perhaps one of the most competitive PDWs available and is a favourite of many because it simply tears enemies to pieces at close range and is very forgiving because of its huge magazine.

AS VAL

Unlocked At: Rank 45
Max-Min Damage: 22-16.7
Rate of Fire (RPM): 900
Mag Size: 20
Reload Full/Empty (Seconds): 1.60-2.70
Fire Modes: Auto/Semi Auto


The AS VAL is related to the VSS Vintorez Sniper rifle and as such is the best long range PDW in the game in terms of damage and accuracy. It comes integrated with a suppressor and is one of the quietest weapons available; this coupled with it’s good long range damage makes it a very good weapon for flanking. It is has the fastest reload of any primary weapon in the game when still full, so make sure you leave the last bullet in the magazine before reloading. The AS VAL’s iron sights are quite possibly the best in the PDW category as they are very precise and clear; many players will actually prefer them over a Red Dot sight! This is unique in the fact that it does 22 damage at close range; this may seem a little strange at first but it allows the weapon to score a 5 hit kill even with a legshot. High damage, a fast RoF, very quiet gunfire and a lightning quick reload speed make this weapon a very attractive package for a multitude of playstyles and will grant the player mid range capability which can’t be matched by another PDW. Interestingly, it also fares better at mid range than Engineer Carbines like the A-91. Another side note is that the AS VAL is physically the largest PDW; this may seem like a negligible difference but makes it more difficult to conceal yourself in bushes or windows.

MP7

Unlocked At: 34000 Points in the Co-Op Campaign
Max-Min Damage: 20-10
Rate of Fire (RPM): 950
Mag Size: 20 (40 with Extended Mags)
Reload Full/Empty (Seconds): 2.40-2.70
Fire Modes: Auto/Semi Auto


The MP7 is an unusual SMG designed in Germany by Heckler and Koch, and should be noted for having the least vertical recoil but most horizontal recoil of and PDW. The MP7 has the highest RoF in the category and this RoF is only beaten by the FAMAS on full auto or the AN-94 on burst fire – it’s the third fastest firing weapon in the game! This, coupled with the 40 round extended magazine makes it an absolutely fantastic weapon for aggressive close quarters combat and is especially useful for Recon or Support because it gives a close range edge which their respective class weapons simply cannot provide. Whilst the Extended Magazine is a very useful attachment indeed, it should not be seen as the sole option for the MP7. It also has an absolutely fantastic suppressor available which quite possibly makes the MP7 the quietest weapon in the entire game! For this reason, the MP7 makes an excellent weapon for flanking/guerrilla playstyles on large maps where you can sneak around and cause havoc behind enemy lines. However, the MP7 is very inaccurate at long ranges and does very little damage so it must be used aggressively or not at all. The Iron Sights available on the MP7 offer a reasonably level of precision and aren’t that obstructive so they can be used quite comfortably as close range. The MP7’s reload time is nothing special, although slightly faster than the PDW-R or P90. Whilst a lot of players dislike the MP7 for it’s low damage and inaccuracy at range, it provides some unique advantages and as such should not be underestimated.

PP-19

Unlocked At: Completion of the Assignment ‘Familiar Territory’
Max-Min Damage: 16.7-9.1
Rate of Fire (RPM): 900
Mag Size: 55
Reload Full/Empty (Seconds): 2.50-3.80


The PP-19 is often hailed as the most underpowered weapon in BF3 and unfortunately this is quite an accurate observation. It has the same reload, recoil and RoF as the P90 but has significantly lower damage than its Belgian cousin which is its shortfall. The weapon is still useable however as a ‘poor man’s P90’ as it is often unlocked first. Whilst fundamentally it is inferior to the P90, it does have a few small advantages. Its iron sights are more precise and less enclosed, an advantage which is somewhat negated by the availability of optics but still useful for those who prefer Iron sights. It also has a more effective suppressor than the P90; it is noticeably quieter which gives the user a small advantage. The most noticeable improvement however is the extra 5 bullets in the magazine, although with such a high RoF this difference is negligible and the PP-19 still deals less damage/mag than the P90, and the extra 5 bullets cannot actually score a kill with bodyshots! An interesting ‘side project’ for occasional use, but overall the PP-19 isn’t worthwhile if the P90 is unlocked.



I hope you enjoyed this guide and that it has encouraged you to review the PDWs in a new light. It's a great group of weapons which is sadly overlooked by many. I may expand on the points made here soon if and when I get time. If you have any questions about the weapon or the guide, contact me on my Battlelog or on this site.

Auto
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Hey guys, lets all remember here that this is Symthic, and we are all mature enough to debate a topic without becoming emotional or insulting. Ad Hominim attacks only demonstrate that your position is weak and that you've run out of supporting evidence and serve to undermine your own position. I hope no one here drops to that level.

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Tuesday, February 14th 2012, 7:51pm

Re: Auto's Guide to PDWs

You're lacking the biggest specialty of the PDWs, all of them except the VAL & PDW-R have no penalty to spread when moving while ADS. And the PDW-R's moving spread is still better than the non PDWs. They are the run and gun, strafe all day, masters. They also have the best hipfire accuracy of all the primary weapon categories. Their downside is both their poor performance at range (including low velocity) and very little extra ammo compared to the other primaries. Taking the Ammo perk is definitely a recommendation if you're not playing support.

With regards to attachments you should probably point out that suppressors don't give the full 50% reduction in spread on PDWs, instead only 20%. PDW's do not suffer the 15% min damage reduction either. Suppressors aren't good because they make the gun quieter, they're good because they exempt you from showing up on the minimap as you fire. How 'loud' the gun is while suppressed does nothing; if you're trying to kill a group from behind the death screams with still give away the fact that you're killing them, even if the rapport of your gun does not. Also, since most PDWs start with relatively low bullet velocities, the velocity penalty of the suppressor hardly changes the ballistics and feel of the gun, and in the case of the UMP it does not have a velocity drop. And finally, unlike most guns, you can use a suppressor and a laser sight at the same time, canceling out the hipfire penalty of the suppressor. Given all of this, PDWs are virtually exempt from the downsides of using the suppressor. Then you have extended mags, which some guns (see the PP-2000 and MP-7) need to really be viable. On guns like the UMP and P90, they'res almost no reason not to run suppressed.

My Takes:

PP-2000 - Underpowered, too low TTK to be competitive, reload takes way too long, damage pitiful at range.
UMP - The only gun with no velocity penalty at all for using the suppressor, Super fast reload, Low TTK, but viable if you're good at flanking.
MP7 - Good CQB for any class. Needs extended mags to be competitive with the P90, but gains ridiculous hipfire accuracy with just the laser sight by forgoing the suppressor.
PDW-R - Solid TTK, Best accuracy among its peers, better fits slightly more static play.
P90 - Similar to MP7, high mag capacity, should be run suppressed 100% of the time to play to its strengths compared to the MP7. Slightly less recoil than MP7, more so with suppressor.
PP-19 - Underpowered version of the p90. Higher recoil recovery, but more spread inc per shot and very low damage.
AS VAL - Not a true PDW, Assault Rifle by stats and unlock progression (only lacking a foregrip), Terrible spread while moving by comparison to PDWs, High damage output, Potentially has a higher headshot multiplier allowing for two headshot kills. Fastest round in chamber reload in the game short of handguns.

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Tuesday, February 14th 2012, 8:05pm

Re: Auto's Guide to PDWs

Brilliant. Absolutely Brilliant, Auto.

Each PDW is different from the others. I love how they balanced them. Not like they did to sniper rifles.

-$.$-

"The classes which benefit most from the PDWs are Recon and Support."

Indeed. I agree 100%. However, not many people use the PDWs as Support class.
The reason is that the people choose M27 IAR, which is so versatile and controllable, over the PDWs.
Even without foregrip, it's still effective and able to eliminate an enemy as quickly as some of the PDWs.(in mid range)

Here I go. (please don't reply to this. this is Auto's post about the PDWs)
If silencer attachment wasn't available for the LMGs, people would use the PDWs more often rather than using M249 or M27 with foregrip + silencer.
My point is...I guess we, as people, wouldn't try hard enough to reach the potential of each weapon when an obvious and easy choice was presented from the beginning. (For example, M27 with foregrip + silencer)

People who visits this site are different, OK? Majority of support class guys don't use bipod for the same reason. The people'd rather run and gun with a huge LMG with silencer, which looks almost ridiculous, and use it like an assault rifle with a 100 rounds magazine.

In my opinion, LMGs shouldn't have silencer. There!! I said it.

In the previous BFs(excluding BC2), people were much more creative in terms of utilizing weapons. They were simply trying to compensate disadvantages of weapons that they were using.

Given limitations = People get creative.
Given much freedom = People won't explore.

I believe that the silencer unavailability on LMGs encourage people to use both bipod and the PDWs.

Am I alone here? Yup, I know.

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Tuesday, February 14th 2012, 10:33pm

Re: Auto's Guide to PDWs

Silencer on LMG's (except the M27. It can be a nice combo)
&quot;I can imagine a perfect world. A word without violence. Without armies. Without war.
And I can imagine us attacking that world because they would never expect it.&quot;

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Tuesday, February 14th 2012, 10:40pm

Re: Auto's Guide to PDWs

I approve of this post.
POI~

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Tuesday, February 14th 2012, 11:58pm

Re: Auto's Guide to PDWs

Anybody else see how much BF3 seems like a big promo for how badass H&K weapons are? lol
All the best weapons in the game are H&K, for the most part. I dunno, maybe they just seem that way to me.

MP7 = monster
M27 = best Support weapon, IMO.
UMP45 = I dunno, I kinda like it. Ridiculously accurate at full auto.
G36C = Very good.
MG36 = No comment required.

I want a USP or a Mark 23 sidearm. lol


Don't mean to derail the thread. Just a little comment. Also, GREAT PDW guide!

  • "Autosynthesis" started this thread

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Wednesday, February 15th 2012, 12:05am

Re: Auto's Guide to PDWs

Glad you guys like it; as I said I'll probably add some stuff about spread at a later date because that really isn't detailed enough.

I've got to say I disagree about the sound suppressors make though - obviously the enemy will see falling comrades but the almost silent sound the MP7 makes it very difficult to pinpoint where the shots come from and you can't be heard from any decent distance. An example of it's use would be on Norshar Canals in the crate area. There are 2 enemies within the crates; they do not has LoS of each other but obviously the blue triangles. You kill enemy A with a silenced MP7; enemy B does not hear you firing and thus assumes A died to a distant enemy. You get to sneak up on B and kill both because he thinks it's clear! Had you been using say, a silenced P90 he would have heard you and shot you're ass. I know, it's a flawed example but I'm tired lol. You can't hide that you killed him, but you can hide where you killed him from. Obviously hiding your minimap spot help this a lot, but the actual sound still makes a difference in some situations so it's worth noting.

The thing about the PP-2K is that it provides good damage up close and is a lot more controllable than the likes of the MP7 and P90 at range. In a straight up face fight, the 2K will get downed by a P90 but at range where they both do the same damage the 2K will win because it is a hell of a lot more accurate. It's kinda like a UMP with less mid range capaility but better up close. Also it looks sexy.xD Not the most OP PDW though, but not as bas as you make out.

EDIT: Trip you forgot the 416 - an M16 with a better first shot multiplier = awesome mid range.
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Hey guys, lets all remember here that this is Symthic, and we are all mature enough to debate a topic without becoming emotional or insulting. Ad Hominim attacks only demonstrate that your position is weak and that you've run out of supporting evidence and serve to undermine your own position. I hope no one here drops to that level.

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I am quite positive auto's worst fear is a forum with no threads that need to be locked.

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Wednesday, February 15th 2012, 8:08am

Re: Auto's Guide to PDWs

Also you forgot to mention that all PDWs except AS VAL have FAST ADS moving speed

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Wednesday, February 15th 2012, 4:30pm

Re: Auto's Guide to PDWs

Quoted from ""Autosynthesis""


EDIT: Trip you forgot the 416 - an M16 with a better first shot multiplier = awesome mid range.


Oh yeah! I knew I was forgetting at least one, somewhere. :)

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Friday, February 17th 2012, 2:41am

Re: Auto's Guide to PDWs

i dont think the pp-19 has less damage than the p90. at least on console. ive been able to get 60 kills with the pp-19 and only 12 with the p90. when im using the p90 i always get outgunned even up close. with the pp-19 i usually win gun fights. to me the p90 is incredibly underpowered. i mean it shoots rifle rounds doesnt it? 5.45? shouldnt that translate to like..... 4 to 5 shot kill up close? i just think its an all around terrible gun and the pp-19 is much better.