Welcome to symthic forums! We would love if you'd register!
You don't have to be expert in bit baking, everyone is more than welcome to join our community.

You are not logged in.

Hey! If this is your first visit on symthic.com, also check out our weapon damage charts.
Currently we have charts for Battlefield 3, Call of Duty: Black Ops 2, Medal of Honor: Warfighter and Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3

Posts: 82

Date of registration
: Feb 21st 2012

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 5

  • Send private message

231

Friday, December 21st 2012, 10:45am

I will never understand the strong distaste the BF3 community has for suppression. If anything, I would hope suppression lead to more complaints about poor map design and not the mechanic itself. Consider a few simple facts about suppression.

1. Suppression has a multiplier effect on both recoil and spread. If you use selective firing modes, the spread increase is minimal. Lets use the M16 as an example. While aiming down the sight, its spread is 1.0 while moving and .2 while standing still, regardless of player stance. Most weapons take a lengthy period of time to fully suppress an enemy (M16 does 7% suppression/bullet), and even when fully suppressed, the multiplier is not large (1.5 for the M16). You do the mental math. Is 1.5 or .3 spread really that much? Most players run into problems with suppression because they fire on full auto or they tap fire incorrectly without realizing the necessity to reset the spread values. The longer you fire, the more inaccurate you become.

2. Suppression does not last forever. Taking cover and having bullets land farther away from you reduces the suppressive effect. If BF3 had truly well designed maps with more than three chokepoints and a COD approach to player density, suppression would be a non issue. If someone suppressed you, there would be a wide variety of space, cover, and opportunities for crossfire. Instead, you get funneled into corridors where you are left with two options: spray and be killed, or don't move forward.

3. Suppression only happens if you miss. If an enemy is really so bad that he continues to miss and suppress you, surely you should be able to survive and reassess the situation. Suppression does not make the enemy more accurate. It only makes you less accurate.

4. Why were you suppressed in the first place? Did you reveal yourself? Did the enemy catch a glimpse of you? Is someone spotting or using a radar device like proximity scan or the mav? Maybe the enemy is intelligent and realizes that your current location is a frequently traveled location. Did some noob really just run out of nowhere, hold lmb with his m249 extended magazine, and break the game's mechanics to cripple you? Maybe you did something wrong.

5. Why should a single source of suppression matter? A player cannot suppress two places at once. Maybe your teammates bunch up together too often.

6. Spread exists whether you are suppressed or not, and you will miss because of it far more often than you may realize.

7. Many players point out that spread is random and randomness in a video game is inherently uncompetitive. Did you ever consider that DICE wishes to emphasize something other than twitch shooting? Speaking from seven years experience of every single Battlefield game, spread has always been high and gunplay has always been a non factor. Winning and losing is not about who can more quickly snap their mouse to the target and pull the trigger. If you think that you deserve to get hits for simply doing that, maybe you're playing the wrong game.

8. Suppression is not a one way street. Shooting back is not pointless. You can suppress someone that is suppressing you too.

9. If the enemy is really that inaccurate, why can't you take cover and heal with a medkit? They waste their time shooting at nothing while creating a muzzle flash begging for a long range intervention.

10. If suppression is inherently bad on the basis that spread is random, should spread be abandoned entirely? I would like to believe that the BF3 community does not want a Call of Duty twitch shooter, but given the influx of new players with BC2/BF3, I would not be surprised if this is the case.

11. If you don't want machine gunners to fire off a 200 round magazine while suppressing you, why aren't you advocating for a return of the overheating mechanic? Why must you automatically assume that suppression is flawed and not consider the rest of the game's impact on the gameplay?

12. If suppression is really that bad and good players are truly incapable of shooting back, why did my accuracy increase WHEN THE SUPPRESSIVE EFFECTS INCREASED? Remember, accuracy stat tracking isn't all that accurate. With most assault rifles, I have 20-27% accuracy. Carbines are in the 20-24% range, machine guns in the 13-17% range, rifles in the 40-50% range, and handguns in the 30-40% range.

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "DrZoidberg1000" (Dec 21st 2012, 10:57am)


Suiizide

Resident Pro

(744)

Posts: 2,784

Date of registration
: Dec 30th 2011

Platform: PC

Location: Australia

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 10

  • Send private message

232

Friday, December 21st 2012, 10:59am

Just a note dude, suppression is additive. The M16A3 becomes 1.7 spread, not 0.3

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk 2

Sig

The T-90 is a challenge, the BTR-90 is going to kill everyone in a 100 meter radius and go flying off a hill into a helicopter only to drive off while the corpse of the Cobra it just went through is being dragged through the beach on Oman.
The game will include a fully automatic An-94 launcher, literally firing Abakans at 600 RPM.
clicky
I expect rep.
If J3ST3R is dead, I think I just heard the entity that is grammar let out a sigh of relief...
To say nothing of the inordinate expense incurred by adding functionality to the gun that I may not ever use.
IKEA is the problem! Its all Desksdesksdesksdesksdesksdesksdesksdesks but oh, oh the second you say you want a table they chuckle and say "A table? You mean a kitchen table? How about a bedside table? Oh! Oh you must mean a dining room table!" and I'm like "NO! NO I JUST WANT A STANDARD, BLACK, BORING TABLE!" and they look at me then smile and go "You mean this? 170..." :(
Also, why does the RANDOM thread have a topic?

Why do fish have legs?
Fucking dutch.


Posts: 82

Date of registration
: Feb 21st 2012

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 5

  • Send private message

233

Friday, December 21st 2012, 11:25am

Just a note dude, suppression is additive. The M16A3 becomes 1.7 spread, not 0.3

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk 2


Very confused now. You're saying the spread on each bullet is equal to:

(Initial spread x attachment multiplier) + suppression modifier + per shot increase

I'm not seeing the part where your spread becomes unwieldy, especially because I haven't experienced it at any point while playing.

Suiizide

Resident Pro

(744)

Posts: 2,784

Date of registration
: Dec 30th 2011

Platform: PC

Location: Australia

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 10

  • Send private message

234

Friday, December 21st 2012, 12:00pm

That is correct. Otherwise snipers wouldn't be affected by suppression at all and they clearly are.

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk 2

Sig

The T-90 is a challenge, the BTR-90 is going to kill everyone in a 100 meter radius and go flying off a hill into a helicopter only to drive off while the corpse of the Cobra it just went through is being dragged through the beach on Oman.
The game will include a fully automatic An-94 launcher, literally firing Abakans at 600 RPM.
clicky
I expect rep.
If J3ST3R is dead, I think I just heard the entity that is grammar let out a sigh of relief...
To say nothing of the inordinate expense incurred by adding functionality to the gun that I may not ever use.
IKEA is the problem! Its all Desksdesksdesksdesksdesksdesksdesksdesks but oh, oh the second you say you want a table they chuckle and say "A table? You mean a kitchen table? How about a bedside table? Oh! Oh you must mean a dining room table!" and I'm like "NO! NO I JUST WANT A STANDARD, BLACK, BORING TABLE!" and they look at me then smile and go "You mean this? 170..." :(
Also, why does the RANDOM thread have a topic?

Why do fish have legs?
Fucking dutch.


Posts: 1,218

Date of registration
: Apr 27th 2012

Platform: PS3

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 7

  • Send private message

235

Friday, December 21st 2012, 2:31pm


1. Suppression has a multiplier effect on both recoil and spread. If you use selective firing modes, the spread increase is minimal. Lets use the M16 as an example. While aiming down the sight, its spread is 1.0 while moving and .2 while standing still, regardless of player stance. Most weapons take a lengthy period of time to fully suppress an enemy (M16 does 7% suppression/bullet), and even when fully suppressed, the multiplier is not large (1.5 for the M16). You do the mental math. Is 1.5 or .3 spread really that much? Most players run into problems with suppression because they fire on full auto or they tap fire incorrectly without realizing the necessity to reset the spread values. The longer you fire, the more inaccurate you become.

Yes... it really is that much.

2. Suppression does not last forever. Taking cover and having bullets land farther away from you reduces the suppressive effect. If BF3 had truly well designed maps with more than three chokepoints and a COD approach to player density, suppression would be a non issue. If someone suppressed you, there would be a wide variety of space, cover, and opportunities for crossfire. Instead, you get funneled into corridors where you are left with two options: spray and be killed, or don't move forward.

You've really not explained this very well at all. I'm lost.

3. Suppression only happens if you miss. If an enemy is really so bad that he continues to miss and suppress you, surely you should be able to survive and reassess the situation. Suppression does not make the enemy more accurate. It only makes you less accurate.

Extremely invalid point, obviously the player will eventually kill you unless they're really bad.

4. Why were you suppressed in the first place? Did you reveal yourself? Did the enemy catch a glimpse of you? Is someone spotting or using a radar device like proximity scan or the mav? Maybe the enemy is intelligent and realizes that your current location is a frequently traveled location. Did some noob really just run out of nowhere, hold lmb with his m249 extended magazine, and break the game's mechanics to cripple you? Maybe you did something wrong.

That's not the point. We're talking about a situation in which suppression may give an unfair advantage to a worse player - we don't care about anything that happened before that and how they got into that situation. If a player gets themselves into a bad situation, it is up to them to get out of it, and killing a bad player just might be the "way out". However suppression can make this harder for the "good" player and easier for the "bad" player - unfairly. You've gone off track, how the player got into a situation where they were being suppressed is an irrelevant variable.

5. Why should a single source of suppression matter? A player cannot suppress two places at once. Maybe your teammates bunch up together too often.

Maybe 90%+ of players play with randoms most of the time. Ever considered that?

6. Spread exists whether you are suppressed or not, and you will miss because of it far more often than you may realize.

Your point is...?

7. Many players point out that spread is random and randomness in a video game is inherently uncompetitive. Did you ever consider that DICE wishes to emphasize something other than twitch shooting? Speaking from seven years experience of every single Battlefield game, spread has always been high and gunplay has always been a non factor. Winning and losing is not about who can more quickly snap their mouse to the target and pull the trigger. If you think that you deserve to get hits for simply doing that, maybe you're playing the wrong game.

Off-topic; we're not talking about spread in general, we're talking about suppression and how it increases spread.

8. Suppression is not a one way street. Shooting back is not pointless. You can suppress someone that is suppressing you too.

Yeah, we all know that.

9. If the enemy is really that inaccurate, why can't you take cover and heal with a medkit? They waste their time shooting at nothing while creating a muzzle flash begging for a long range intervention.

"really that inaccurate" - you're imagining things. And refer to my response to point 3.

10. If suppression is inherently bad on the basis that spread is random, should spread be abandoned entirely? I would like to believe that the BF3 community does not want a Call of Duty twitch shooter, but given the influx of new players with BC2/BF3, I would not be surprised if this is the case.

Strike through.

11. If you don't want machine gunners to fire off a 200 round magazine while suppressing you, why aren't you advocating for a return of the overheating mechanic? Why must you automatically assume that suppression is flawed and not consider the rest of the game's impact on the gameplay?

As far as I know barely anyone - if anyone - in this thread is complaining about suppression for weapons such as LMGs...

12. If suppression is really that bad and good players are truly incapable of shooting back, why did my accuracy increase WHEN THE SUPPRESSIVE EFFECTS INCREASED? Remember, accuracy stat tracking isn't all that accurate. With most assault rifles, I have 20-27% accuracy. Carbines are in the 20-24% range, machine guns in the 13-17% range, rifles in the 40-50% range, and handguns in the 30-40% range.

That's just you. Mine's decreased. The accuracy stat is irrelevant and varies from person to person.
Symthic?

Immortal Tombat

Ellipsis guys...

(285)

Posts: 935

Date of registration
: Jun 1st 2012

Platform: PS3

Location: UK

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 7

  • Send private message

236

Friday, December 21st 2012, 2:38pm

Zoidberg, I'm pretty sure suppression has an additive effect on spread. Hence why the AS VAL and bolt actions suffer. So M16 fully suppressed would have 1.7 base spread, not 0.3.

Posts: 93

Date of registration
: May 2nd 2012

Platform: PC

Location: Latvia

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 5

  • Send private message

237

Friday, December 21st 2012, 4:59pm

That's not the point. We're talking about a situation in which suppression may give an unfair advantage to a worse player - we don't care about anything that happened before that and how they got into that situation. If a player gets themselves into a bad situation, it is up to them to get out of it, and killing a bad player just might be the "way out". However suppression can make this harder for the "good" player and easier for the "bad" player - unfairly. You've gone off track, how the player got into a situation where they were being suppressed is an irrelevant variable.
Unfair - that is the point. Good player must die from bad player, if he think he is rambo and there are no necessary to hide. Or that is some kind unwritten rule when bad player is unalowd be a danger for good player?


P.S. Im for more unfair stuff in the game, for example tank always win lone AT unit.

Posts: 2,606

Date of registration
: Feb 10th 2012

Platform: PC

Location: Avalon, Somerset, England

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 12

  • Send private message

238

Friday, December 21st 2012, 5:13pm

This thread is getting a bit out of hand, I think it has run it's course.
Forum Rules

Hey guys, lets all remember here that this is Symthic, and we are all mature enough to debate a topic without becoming emotional or insulting. Ad Hominim attacks only demonstrate that your position is weak and that you've run out of supporting evidence and serve to undermine your own position. I hope no one here drops to that level.

Quotes


[Auto's] voice is like butter on the ears

I am quite positive auto's worst fear is a forum with no threads that need to be locked.