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Miffyli

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1

Friday, February 24th 2017, 10:16pm

Battlefield 1 recoil decrease

Recoil decrease is applied per axis (separately for ver. and hor.) for each logical frame. When gun is ready to fire a shot, decrease is calculated as

\[ Decrease = \left ( \left ( \frac{|\text{CurrentRecoil}|}{0.5} \right)^{0.6}+.001 \right ) \ \cdot \ \text{RecoilDecrease} \ \cdot \ \Delta t \ \cdot \ \text{TimesSinceLastShot}^{0.5} {\cdot} \ 1.52 \ , \]

and if gun is not ready to fire (e.g. while firing the weapon), decrease is

\[ Decrease = Decrease \ \cdot \ ShootingRecoilDecreaseScale \ , \]

Where:
\[
\begin{align}
\text{CurrentRecoil} &= \text{Current amount of recoil (hor. or ver.)} \\
\text{RecoilDecrease} &= \text{Weapon's recoil decrease value (from stats)} \\
\Delta t &= \text{Time since last logical frame (seconds)} \\
\text{TimeSinceLastShot} &= \text{Time since last fired shot (seconds)} \\
\text{ShootingRecoilDecreaseScale} &= \text{Determines how fast recoil decreases while firing (from weapon's stats)} \\
\end{align}
\]

The recoil of next frame is calculated by adding/subtracting Decrease from CurrentRecoil in way new recoil is closer to zero.

I would post plots of recoil recordings vs. this equation I realized I don't have the necessary datas currently on my laptop

Comparison between BF4 and BF1
Here's a plot comparing weapons with similar recoil increase between BF1 and BF4 (namely, BF4 JS2 vs. BF1 MP 18 Trench) while not shooting:

index.php?page=Attachment&attachmentID=1038

Note that I used logic rate of 60Hz and included the delta-t term in BF4 recoil decrease.

Main difference here is that BF1 recoil decrease slows down over time. There is also no sudden stop in recoil decrease like in BF4 (first high decrease, and then suddenly stops).
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

NoctyrneSAGA

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Friday, February 24th 2017, 10:33pm

The Info page notes that decrease is different in BF1 compared to BF4.

Do you mind explaining this?
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With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


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Miffyli

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Friday, February 24th 2017, 10:38pm

The Info page notes that decrease is different in BF1 compared to BF4.

Do you mind explaining this?

BF4 recoil was simpler and had the relatively fast increase in speed over time, this one should have more natural shape.
Actually hold on a second, going to do theoretical plots.

... If that is what you asked. I have also made an update for pages but haven't pushed it online yet.
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

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Friday, February 24th 2017, 10:52pm


\[
\begin{align}
\text{CurrentRecoil} &= \text{Current amount of recoil (hor. or ver.)} \\
\end{align}
\]

My problem is, for H-Recoil, we just don't know what the CurrentRecoil value IS at any given shot. It can be maximum, it can be mininum, it can be anything in between those 2 values. That's why I've always just worked with: "after 5 million rounds fired, you can expect to do 64.56876 damage for your 5RB."

V-Recoil is set, though, so this will work. Although it is also the easiest to counter and thus most frequently discarded.

So, I just treat H-Recoil as an extension to SIPS, an additional factor to inaccuracy during sustained firing. This is even more in-play now, now that BF1 has balanced H-Recoil across the board. Unlike SIPS, though, this one you can SEE... so you really don't have anyone else to blame but yourself, if you SEE that your aiming point has been jerked off the target, and yet you still let the gun fire.

One thing that might be worth investigating: whether Factory guns recover Recoil so quickly that it does meaningful work even during max-RPM firing. The pre-patch Luger 1906 Factory seemed way more "stable" than its H-Recoil values would suggest, and now that it is an "Optical" it seemed to have lost that edge.

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Friday, February 24th 2017, 11:23pm

A more general question:

What does BF1 do in terms of "simulation" steps, "timesteps", and "netcode steps". The netcode is updating at 60 Hz. But what is the tick rate for the simulation steps. Is that the same as the delta_T in the recoil equation? I guess it matters little since the fastest gun in the game is just 15 Hz cyclic.

Miffyli

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Friday, February 24th 2017, 11:28pm

@tankmayvin

Unless they have gotten more wonky with it, "netcode" rate = logic rate which is mainly 60Hz for BF1 at the moment.

Update the main post with little comparison of BF4 and BF1 recoil decrease.
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

Zer0Cod3x

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7

Friday, February 24th 2017, 11:56pm

and if gun is not ready to fire (e.g. while firing the weapon), decrease is

Decrease=Decrease*ShootingRecoilDecreaseScale

Wait. So recoil decrease occurs even when your weapon isn't ready to fire?

Also, I just checked the ShootingRecoilDecreaseScale for the MP18, which is 0. Unless I'm looking at the wrong data, this means that the MP18 never resets its recoil. How exactly does this work?
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Zer0Cod3x" (Feb 25th 2017, 12:11am)


Miffyli

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Saturday, February 25th 2017, 12:38am

@Zer0Cod3x

Yes, the recoil decrease is done all the time even when shooting (but only has an effect if ShootingRecoilDecreaseScale > 0).

For MP18 with ShootingRecoilDecreaseScale=0 just means that the recoil does not decrease during firing, only when weapon is not firing (i.e. is ready to fire next shot).
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

NoctyrneSAGA

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Saturday, February 25th 2017, 12:54am

@Miffyli

So the product of decelerating RDEC is a smoother function?
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

Miffyli

Symthic Developer

(6,088)

  • "Miffyli" started this thread

Posts: 3,650

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: Mar 21st 2013

Platform: PC

Location: __main__, Finland

Reputation modifier: 16

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10

Saturday, February 25th 2017, 1:42am

@NoctyrneSAGA

Welllll the BF4 one is smooth-ish too (see the plot in main post), but this time it goes the sensible way around and has a tail instead of "bump".
Sorry, it's bit late here and brain is no work again.

Also, here's a plotter for BF1 recoild decrease:

Weapon 1
RPM:
Num shots :
Recoil inc:
Recoil dec:
Shooting scale:
Weapon 2
RPM:
Num shots :
Recoil inc:
Recoil dec:
Shooting scale:
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included