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  • "Zybane" started this thread

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: Dec 6th 2011

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1

Sunday, February 12th 2017, 2:35am

Tank damage versus Hero's?

I've noticed as an experienced tanker that the heavy tank's main gun only does low 30's damage to hero's with direct hits. This means it takes 3-4 main tank rounds to kill a hero, which seems a bit ridiculous to me. So obviously there is some crazy low modifier set for tank rounds versus Hero's.

I have a friend who is adamant that you can kill a full health hero with one tank round (non hardcore). This is complete BS. Can anyone confirm my experience?

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2

Sunday, February 12th 2017, 3:11am

It could be due to the type of ammunition: High Explosive vs. Anti-Tank. The Assault's Rocket Gun insta-kills Elites with a direct hit and I believe it is considered Anti-Tank ordinance and not High Explosive and therefore inflicts higher, direct impact damage. The same idea would apply to the tank weapons if I'm correct. I'll look through the files and see if I come up with anything.

Edit: Yeahhhhhh...nevermind about the files comment. They list the AT at 70 blast damage and the HE at 112, so material multipliers are at play and we don't know officially what they are. I would wager a guess that there's a 2.5x multiplier attached to the AT blast damage in order to achieve 150 damage against a 1000 HP tank. I don't know what the default damage of HE is against tanks though. This said, there isn't a way of knowing what the multiplier is against infantry, if that potential infantry multiplier is the same for Elites or if they have their own multiplier. It's a convoluted mess.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

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Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho

This post has been edited 3 times, last edit by "JSLICE20" (Feb 12th 2017, 4:31am)


  • "Zybane" started this thread

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3

Sunday, February 12th 2017, 4:32am

Thanks for looking into it. I think the Elites have some sort of damage mitigation multiplier versus certain weapon types. The tank round "explosive" damage being one of them. I know for a fact the main gun of a tank won't do more than low 30's damage to Elites with direct hits, as I've seen it dozens if not hundreds of times.

Was just curious if there was any data to back it up, or at least corroboration from other players here. What I think is happening is some may kill an elite with one tank round, but the elite was already damaged. I also cannot think of a way to jump on a server to test this in a controlled environment with two people.

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4

Sunday, February 12th 2017, 5:12am

TGewehr, 57mm HE, 57mm AT do OHK Elites. Direct hits, that is.
No experience in the other tank guns that may OHK (37mm HE, 75mm Howitzer, Field Gun).

From my experience it sounds like you're mentioning splash damage hits from 57mm HE. Jslice is right in that there's some material multiplier at work that reduces blast damage taken by elites, but I absolutely do not believe that direct hits don't score a OHK.
For one it isn't consistent with my own experience and the other is that the most common place you'd aim 57mm HE is at the target's feet just to down them through blast damage. It's the most efficient way and also it may lead you to believe you hit them directly when you just barely missed them.
Bro of Legion, the lurker ninja mod | Tesla FTW | RNG is evil.

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I find majority of the complaints I hear about this game somehow never appear in my games.

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5

Sunday, February 12th 2017, 5:38am

@Zybane

Sure thing. Elites are a mystery, even their overall health is unknown* according to the data files (or we've been looking in the wrong places), even one of our top wizards, elementofprogress, couldn't find the value. And if he's struggling, then good friggen luck haha.

*even the Cavalry unit

There are two possibilities associated with this:

1. Elites do have just 100 HP, but standard projeciles have a certain material multiplier applied to them.

2. Elites do have in excess of 100 HP which would indicate that it could be calculated through comparison of a weapon's damage against a normal soldier and then an Elite.

Actually...I may be able to do it right now.

We have a Model 8 .35, currently my weapon of choice. It does 42 max damage to infantry and, if memory serves 7 to Elites. That's a factor of 6. Therefore, it could very well be 600 HP. Let's take a look. If we treat the Elite as having 100 HP,for argument's sake, and divide by the max damage of 7 this leaves us with 14.29. Multiply this by the max damage of 42 and we get 600.18. Now my math may be utterly wrong, in fact I expect it to be. Not the calculations, but the method of going about it.

Anyway, let's continue. In the case of the Rocket Gun, the files list it at 150 blast damage, clearly not enough to kill a 600 HP target. However, with a damage multiplier of 4x it leaves us with a perfect 600 damage points. This is oddly coincidental or I could actually be correct haha.

So if we are to assume that HE does ~30 damage to Elites with direct hits and it does a max 112 damage, and if Elites have 600 HP, we're only doing about 200 damage (let's use 225). 225 112 = 2.01; a 2x multiplier. Okay, this is getting eerie now. Since Elites are essentially armored targets that are just susceptible to normal projectiles, HE will be less effective against them (in theory of course).

I may have stumbled onto something amazing or all of this is matching with perfection due to complete coincidence.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

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Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho


Zer0Cod3x

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6

Sunday, February 12th 2017, 6:44am

1. Elites do have just 100 HP, but standard projeciles have a certain material multiplier applied to them.

2. Elites do have in excess of 100 HP which would indicate that it could be calculated through comparison of a weapon's damage against a normal soldier and then an Elite.

It's the first one, since melee weapons still do full damage to them.
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


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7

Sunday, February 12th 2017, 7:07am

It's the first one, since melee weapons still do full damage to them.

Ah, right. So a potential 0.6x multiplier to bullets then. Or - or - Elites do have 600 health, bullets are unchanged, and melee gets a 6x multiplier. Regardless, we know a multiplier exists somewhere.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

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    SnapZoomTime 0.2
    SnapZoomPostTimeNoInput 0.0
    SnapZoomPostTime 0.0
    SnapZoomReticlePointPriority 999
    SnapZoomAutoEngageTime 0.0
    SnapZoomBreakTimeAtMaxInput -1.0
    SnapZoomBreakMaxInput 0.2
    SnapZoomBreakMinAngle 90.0
    SnapZoomSpamGuardTime 0.5
    SoldierBackupSkeletonCollisionData *nullGuid*
    CheckBoneCenterOnlyDistance 40.0
    DisableForcedTargetRecalcDistance 7.0

Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho


Oscar

Sona tank jungle

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: May 30th 2012

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Sunday, February 12th 2017, 10:14am

1. Elites do have just 100 HP, but standard projeciles have a certain material multiplier applied to them.

2. Elites do have in excess of 100 HP which would indicate that it could be calculated through comparison of a weapon's damage against a normal soldier and then an Elite.

It's the first one, since melee weapons still do full damage to them.

I could've sworn they take around halved damage from front melee strikes with clubs and heavy melee weapons. Knives have no effect from the front.

Haven't had a experience with stabs from the back without triggering a takedown but I can definitely say that melee attacks from the front deal reduced damage.
Bro of Legion, the lurker ninja mod | Tesla FTW | RNG is evil.

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I find majority of the complaints I hear about this game somehow never appear in my games.

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9

Sunday, February 12th 2017, 2:14pm

57 mm of both types and the AT rifle all one hit kill elites/cav with a true direct hit. The rifle is about 2HK for the horse since it does 60HP.

I am fairly confident 37mm and 75mm fire also kill with direct hits on elites/cav but you shouldn't be using a 37mm tank anyway.

Blast damage drops off heavily though, down to 30 hp for even very near misses with 57mm HE vs elites.

The confusion is likely because there is no practical difference between a direct hit and a near miss with regular infantry except for headshot bonuses - which you can get with tank guns.