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  • "leptis" started this thread

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Monday, January 2nd 2017, 1:28pm

Recoil Control: Conclusions for regular players.

In a series of previous post

Recoil Control: An appetizer

Recoil Control: A pattern of control (1)

Recoil Control: A pattern of control (2). More Weapons.

Recoil Control: Horizontal Recoil (and 3)


we have analyzed real records of recoil control and the pattern has been determined. The purpose of this analysis was to determine an actual pattern that could be used in the simulator for the "controlled recoil" scenario, but some general conclusions for players can be drawn.

They have been posted in the BF4 section because the records were made with BF4 weapons, but the conclusions have general validity because the mechanics are the same in both BF4 and BF1.

Although the data come from an skilled player, the pattern is fairly consistent and can help to players to improve the control, if only because the player is aware of what he is doing.

NOTE (edited): Some very experienced players may have more precise control patterns. The conclusions can be valid for average players.

Some consecuences:


1.- You can not control the first bullets

In the records it has been verified that there is a reaction time more or less fixed until the recoil of the first bullets is reacted. Although this has some variability the following rule may be given:

- High ROF / RECOIL weapons (ROF> 700) 3 bullets are not corrected, which can reach 4 with ROF 900.

- Low ROF / RECOIL weapons (<600), 2 bullets are not corrected. Some times 2nd bullet is partially corrected.

A consequence is that with microbursts (2-3 bullets) you have to think that they will always be uncontrolled.

2.- The correction is always progressive during the 2-3th to 7-8th bullets with an average descending movement from the point reached by the last uncontrolled bullet. The usual bursts (5-6-7 bullets) end during this phase. Think of 3 bullets up and 3 bullets descending.

3.-From this point the control is more or less stable but the point of aiming is always above the initial point. You may think that for bullets from 5Th onwards your aiming point is within a circle (diameter: 0.5 degrees for skilled players and 0.8 degrees for less skilled ones), centered 1 degree above the initial point for high ROF and 0.4 degrees for low ROF. When the 2nd bullet is controlled an almost constant average point is kept.

This is the pattern for long bursts, such as can be done with BF1 LMGs. Important: the aiming point is permanently higher than the initial one. Overcorrect.

4.-You can not control the horizontal recoil of each individual bullet, but if the cumulated effect ( right-right-right ...) or the general tendency to deviate when the horizontal recoil is asymmetrical allows correction. This means that the horizontal recoil is not continuously corrected, but when you feel that the sight is out of the target. This correction usually corresponds to a great coordinated horizontal and vertical movement of correction.

As all this may be somewhat confusing I will explain it another way. A well-aimed and well-controlled bursts will produce the following results (aiming point, because spread will finally carry the bullet to another site).

Stomach-Chest-Head-Chest-Chest-Chest ....


The consequence is: Don`t aim to head with automatic weapons if you are not a very skilled player (edited). You will surely lose the second and third bullets and the control may fail to recover the aim to chest.


Once this has been explained you can better understand the pattern that has been registered:

Some records (graphs degree of pitch / time - miliseconds):




General pattern of control with sinthetyc model:





The final recommendation is that with full auto weapons you must always aim low if you do not trust your control (edited). Think about how the spray works and try to keep the first bullets (uncontrolled) on the target. And aim lower the further the enemy is.

This post has been edited 6 times, last edit by "leptis" (Jan 5th 2017, 7:43pm)


Miffyli

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Monday, January 2nd 2017, 5:15pm

I like how, ten years later, the tip shared among CSS players got theoretical background now. Of course it is a different game, but both have recoilish/spreadish stuff and I figure it somewhat applies.
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

marbleduck

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Monday, January 2nd 2017, 7:02pm



Given sufficient practice, it is clear that your rule does not apply. While the second shot can still be off, the third and fourth shots are usually fine. With enough practice on low FSM weapons (SCAR-H), one can prepare for the initial jerk when firing and be thrown off target only minimally.

Platoon Marble Duck

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"you obviously don't know what an argument is as there is only one person battling. Do you really fucking think I want subs? You think you can act all big and powerful just because you sit on a computer at least 6 hours a day like the probably nerdy unwanted retard you are with 4.3k subs? You think 4.3k subs is a lot? LOL you need medicine man. I don't want any subs as i just have a google account for other media and writing comments. Think twice before you act. You even said in your video you aren't that great of a player, and the comments agree you aren't. Maybe you should once again think twice before you act, stop being such an annoying, ignorant bastard that everyone wants to shut up, and god, literally, just shut up. Your voice gave me a headache :s"

"As a youtuber shouldn't be trying to be reeling in your viewers with exciting stuff being said not your boring ass commentary for your video"

"The more you watch his vid the dumber he gets I swear he's borderline autistic look I got shot behind cover beacuase thin sheets metal are unpenetrable. Bf4 is just as quiet and tactical as bf3 random explosion in the background . Player has dissconected from chat
You started playing bf3 and never touched bfc1/2. Please do yourself a favor and shutdown your generic cod channel down"

"Nice clickb8 Faggot w8ting for your shit tier video to disable comments . Fucking newfag cancer go play some cod you activisiom cock faggot"

"I don't see why he [MarbleDuck] always tries to shit on levelcap he is better and has a million more subs...and also "there isnt a best gun in she game there are guns that are better that others at different engagement distances" yes thats true and whichever is the best/most average at all of them is the "best gun""

"Marbleduck you don't know shit lol levelcap knows more than you do you cant talk about how someone puts up garbage when you do yourself your a newcomer to YouTube acting like you know shit step up in the food chain first then you have the right to talk otherwise your just a fish trying to compete with sharks"

"Why don't we just witness "LevelCap vs MarbleDuck" One on One both on Battlefield 3 and Battlefield 4 seen as there is so much Controversy about the Two Youtubers"

"stfu cunt, BF3 was way better end of discussion"

"Stfu man, you're be littleing the most looked upon Battlefield Youtuber. No one cares about you, how much of an ego you have, or quite frankly your opinion. It's a fucking game.... Does it really fucking matter? Pathetic man."

"fuck you asshole, dont talk shit about total"

"Wtf is your problem? You have no subs and he has millions, yet you pick on him like some kind of stubborn, ignorant, rude child born with a silver spoon is his mouth. It's easy to do that, for example... You said there was no background noise yet there is. You say you're a fairly good player, you're not."

"please talk like a normal person and not like a professional"

C0llis

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Monday, January 2nd 2017, 9:12pm

It would be really interesting with data from some of these super accurate players, like Nickel or Relaa.

Still, interesting analysis. The results are in line with what one would expect from "regular" players, it's nice to have some data.

Things people said

And reading Youtube comments still gives me Turbo Cancer.

It really is quite frustrating when Helen Keller sets up her LMG in the only doorway in/out of an area.

What kind of question is that? Since when is cheese ever a bad idea?

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

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Monday, January 2nd 2017, 10:24pm

The whole theory stems from the idea that controlling the recoil is a reaction to a stimulus. Gun fires, I see that the gun fires, I attempt to capture recoil but the weapon ROF exceeds normal human reaction time.


Given that I am the one pulling the trigger and the one compensating for recoil does that even make sense to measure it like that? There is no "reaction time" if I am the one creating the stimulus I am reacting to.
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marbleduck

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Tuesday, January 3rd 2017, 5:23am

It would be really interesting with data from some of these super accurate players, like Nickel or Relaa.

Still, interesting analysis. The results are in line with what one would expect from "regular" players, it's nice to have some data.


Rela actually isn't particularly accurate, he just snaps really fast (which is still pretty impressive); Nickel is probably a better player to look at.

The whole theory stems from the idea that controlling the recoil is a reaction to a stimulus. Gun fires, I see that the gun fires, I attempt to capture recoil but the weapon ROF exceeds normal human reaction time.


Given that I am the one pulling the trigger and the one compensating for recoil does that even make sense to measure it like that? There is no "reaction time" if I am the one creating the stimulus I am reacting to.


Leptis, unfortunately, does not account for the fact that one can anticipate the recoil of the weapon and prepare the counteracting motion in advance of it. Consider that when a human throws an object, the length of the window of opportunity to release our object is smaller than that of human reaction time; the signal must therefore have already been sent to the arm before reaching that position. It follows that one can do the same with weapon recoil.

Platoon Marble Duck

Hate Mail

"you obviously don't know what an argument is as there is only one person battling. Do you really fucking think I want subs? You think you can act all big and powerful just because you sit on a computer at least 6 hours a day like the probably nerdy unwanted retard you are with 4.3k subs? You think 4.3k subs is a lot? LOL you need medicine man. I don't want any subs as i just have a google account for other media and writing comments. Think twice before you act. You even said in your video you aren't that great of a player, and the comments agree you aren't. Maybe you should once again think twice before you act, stop being such an annoying, ignorant bastard that everyone wants to shut up, and god, literally, just shut up. Your voice gave me a headache :s"

"As a youtuber shouldn't be trying to be reeling in your viewers with exciting stuff being said not your boring ass commentary for your video"

"The more you watch his vid the dumber he gets I swear he's borderline autistic look I got shot behind cover beacuase thin sheets metal are unpenetrable. Bf4 is just as quiet and tactical as bf3 random explosion in the background . Player has dissconected from chat
You started playing bf3 and never touched bfc1/2. Please do yourself a favor and shutdown your generic cod channel down"

"Nice clickb8 Faggot w8ting for your shit tier video to disable comments . Fucking newfag cancer go play some cod you activisiom cock faggot"

"I don't see why he [MarbleDuck] always tries to shit on levelcap he is better and has a million more subs...and also "there isnt a best gun in she game there are guns that are better that others at different engagement distances" yes thats true and whichever is the best/most average at all of them is the "best gun""

"Marbleduck you don't know shit lol levelcap knows more than you do you cant talk about how someone puts up garbage when you do yourself your a newcomer to YouTube acting like you know shit step up in the food chain first then you have the right to talk otherwise your just a fish trying to compete with sharks"

"Why don't we just witness "LevelCap vs MarbleDuck" One on One both on Battlefield 3 and Battlefield 4 seen as there is so much Controversy about the Two Youtubers"

"stfu cunt, BF3 was way better end of discussion"

"Stfu man, you're be littleing the most looked upon Battlefield Youtuber. No one cares about you, how much of an ego you have, or quite frankly your opinion. It's a fucking game.... Does it really fucking matter? Pathetic man."

"fuck you asshole, dont talk shit about total"

"Wtf is your problem? You have no subs and he has millions, yet you pick on him like some kind of stubborn, ignorant, rude child born with a silver spoon is his mouth. It's easy to do that, for example... You said there was no background noise yet there is. You say you're a fairly good player, you're not."

"please talk like a normal person and not like a professional"

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "marbleduck" (Jan 3rd 2017, 5:29am)


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Tuesday, January 3rd 2017, 11:42am

Leptis, unfortunately, does not account for the fact that one can anticipate the recoil of the weapon and prepare the counteracting motion in advance of it.

Leptis focuses more on horizontal recoil due to this. Vertical recoil, and FSM, can be learned to compensate and that's not too difficult but you can't, inherently, "pre-compensate" for horizontal recoil.

However I don't know how "pro" players build their weapons. Do they minimize horizontal recoil or spread or what? Only few weapons were included in these experiments so it's more of a general study for regular players (in title) with automatic weapons in general, so I am not sure if this is applicable to pro players using same weapon for hundreds of hours.
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

  • "leptis" started this thread

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Tuesday, January 3rd 2017, 1:19pm

Given sufficient practice, it is clear that your rule does not apply. While the second shot can still be off, the third and fourth shots are usually fine. With enough practice on low FSM weapons (SCAR-H), one can prepare for the initial jerk when firing and be thrown off target only minimally.


Obviously very experienced players may have better control patterns than those discussed here. As I have no records of those players I can not say anything about them.

I have edited the post and surely with the new title "Conclusions for regular player" and other small corrections you will agree with the conclusions.

In any case, I have analyzed the video you have posted and the result in the first four kills (it is quite boring to analyze frame by frame and bullet by bullet) and the result is this (bullets numbered by magazine):



There may be some error because I've done it in slow motion + stop + forward, because now I haven't any tool to do it any other way, and the hitmarks remain on screen overlapping to the next shot. It is possible that some enemy has life <100.

But you can conclude:

1.- There isn't any evidence of control in advance.
2.- The first bullets fail systematically.
3.- The player systematically try to aim to the head.
4.- The player has an exceptional skill in the adaptation phase to keep the aiming on the head.

The whole theory stems from the idea that controlling the recoil is a reaction to a stimulus. Gun fires, I see that the gun fires, I attempt to capture recoil but the weapon ROF exceeds normal human reaction time.


Given that I am the one pulling the trigger and the one compensating for recoil does that even make sense to measure it like that? There is no "reaction time" if I am the one creating the stimulus I am reacting to.


I speak of reaction time because the records show it, and if they show it, it is a positive proof that it exists. You can see the records that I have posted. It certainly can not be said to which stimulus responds the action that is detected. It can be the recoil observed on the screen .... or the fact of having clicked the LMB. The evidence is that there is a delay between the "click" and the first correction stroke.

The aimbots make advanced corrections (or better, simultaneous to recoil). I have evidence of that.

Possibly a player can make a movement of the type "clik + drag down the mouse" to secure the second shot. But that has the same effect as aiming lower ... but with the advantage that the mouse is already moving in the second shot. Nickel doesn't do that. As there is no evidence of that ... leave it in a state of hypothesis. Any evidence will be very welcomed.

This post has been edited 5 times, last edit by "leptis" (Jan 3rd 2017, 2:25pm)


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Tuesday, January 3rd 2017, 5:37pm

It's all in the footwork. In my opinion the way you move and acquire targets should dictate when to aim for the head and when to start shooting before acquiring the head, because your aim ends up on the torso, naturally or incidentally. You can deduce this from Nickel's video, by the way. He's making an extra effort to aim for the head, obviously, while losing way more time than he ought to, but, since the opposition is weak, he gets away with ease. While I have no idea if he was consciously working on head acquisition or just showing off good mood, you can see clearly that one should follow a path of least resistance for faster kills, while tuning foot work so it brings you closer to the head each time you turn a corner..

It takes considerable time and effort to learn head-shotting most targets and it isn't as straghtforward as it seems, but it's totally superior. A high chance the opponent already took damage, just before meeting you. A high chance he'll freak out and do something silly after losing most health in an instant. And then there are multiple enemy engagements. So, I respectfully disagree with the author's recommendations, given my own limited experience, primarily.

marbleduck

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Tuesday, January 3rd 2017, 6:18pm






Better example. Note specifically 2:04 and 3:05

Platoon Marble Duck

Hate Mail

"you obviously don't know what an argument is as there is only one person battling. Do you really fucking think I want subs? You think you can act all big and powerful just because you sit on a computer at least 6 hours a day like the probably nerdy unwanted retard you are with 4.3k subs? You think 4.3k subs is a lot? LOL you need medicine man. I don't want any subs as i just have a google account for other media and writing comments. Think twice before you act. You even said in your video you aren't that great of a player, and the comments agree you aren't. Maybe you should once again think twice before you act, stop being such an annoying, ignorant bastard that everyone wants to shut up, and god, literally, just shut up. Your voice gave me a headache :s"

"As a youtuber shouldn't be trying to be reeling in your viewers with exciting stuff being said not your boring ass commentary for your video"

"The more you watch his vid the dumber he gets I swear he's borderline autistic look I got shot behind cover beacuase thin sheets metal are unpenetrable. Bf4 is just as quiet and tactical as bf3 random explosion in the background . Player has dissconected from chat
You started playing bf3 and never touched bfc1/2. Please do yourself a favor and shutdown your generic cod channel down"

"Nice clickb8 Faggot w8ting for your shit tier video to disable comments . Fucking newfag cancer go play some cod you activisiom cock faggot"

"I don't see why he [MarbleDuck] always tries to shit on levelcap he is better and has a million more subs...and also "there isnt a best gun in she game there are guns that are better that others at different engagement distances" yes thats true and whichever is the best/most average at all of them is the "best gun""

"Marbleduck you don't know shit lol levelcap knows more than you do you cant talk about how someone puts up garbage when you do yourself your a newcomer to YouTube acting like you know shit step up in the food chain first then you have the right to talk otherwise your just a fish trying to compete with sharks"

"Why don't we just witness "LevelCap vs MarbleDuck" One on One both on Battlefield 3 and Battlefield 4 seen as there is so much Controversy about the Two Youtubers"

"stfu cunt, BF3 was way better end of discussion"

"Stfu man, you're be littleing the most looked upon Battlefield Youtuber. No one cares about you, how much of an ego you have, or quite frankly your opinion. It's a fucking game.... Does it really fucking matter? Pathetic man."

"fuck you asshole, dont talk shit about total"

"Wtf is your problem? You have no subs and he has millions, yet you pick on him like some kind of stubborn, ignorant, rude child born with a silver spoon is his mouth. It's easy to do that, for example... You said there was no background noise yet there is. You say you're a fairly good player, you're not."

"please talk like a normal person and not like a professional"