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271

Saturday, December 31st 2016, 9:18pm

Didn't Blizzard also tweet out "Try using Genji" as their answer to the community's demand for a nerf?

I believe you have stated something of this nature before, but does DICE assist the community by divulging possible counters and hard counters?
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

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Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho


NoctyrneSAGA

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272

Saturday, December 31st 2016, 9:18pm

Didn't Blizzard also tweet out "Try using Genji" as their answer to the community's demand for a nerf?

I believe you have stated something of this nature before, but does DICE assist the community by divulging possible counters and hard counters?


If they don't, maybe it is time they started.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

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273

Saturday, December 31st 2016, 9:20pm

Maybe ''Tank Hunter'' should be self-explaining.
[Aristocrat's Shoes]
TLDR -
Teamwork is where players function by themselves, but their effectiveness is multiplied when they work together. Not a checklist of "did we bring a healer so we can start playing?"

NoctyrneSAGA

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274

Saturday, December 31st 2016, 9:23pm

Maybe ''Tank Hunter'' should be self-explaining.


Yes. It should be renamed "Tank Hunter: The package you use to delete enemy tanks"

That should make it easy enough for players to understand.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

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275

Saturday, December 31st 2016, 9:24pm

Maybe ''Tank Hunter'' should be self-explaining.

That hasn't quite worked out so well for the Tank Hunter Attack Plane...
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

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Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho


  • "tankmayvin" started this thread

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276

Saturday, December 31st 2016, 9:40pm

@Legion

Flawed assumption going on here: that the limitations to the landship DPS are a player skill cap not a mechanistic issue with the way the vehicle itself handles.

This is a technical discussion, not a theoretical discussion. Theory has a bad habit of poorly or optimistically predicting reality because the two don't quite match up. Classic example in things that actually matter: the design of any sort of heat engine. We talk for eg talk about the Carnot efficiency of a heat engine, but engineering is cognizant of the fact that heat engines can only asymptocally approach this efficiency and are in practice (key word) significantly lower.

I think the same situation applies here. A more fair comparison is 1 sponson + driver gun in firing close to their maximum rate. The TH still wins overwhelmingly but the squad is less dominant.

I agree the player base is slow on the uptake, but frankly I don't think the average really implements what's known. Everyone probably realized that dedicated repairs and gunner support abilities made tanks very powerful, but the overwhelming number of vehicles encountered in BF3/BF4 simply aren't supported by gunners, especially not ones that always repaired at opportune times. Indeed you can generally rely on having the repair advantage if you've got a friend who drives with you.

I suspect the same will carry on to the landships even when people become aware that they are actually quite powerful.

Statistical likelyhood (ie what I am most likely to encounter in the game during most of the playtime) determines how I'm going to play a lot more than how great something is in theory. My suspicion, based on the lifecycle of most vehicle metas in BF, is that very well crewed vehicles simply won't be the norm.

Now the TH is scary with just a good driver because of that damn AT rifle, and I usually withdraw from fights with landships until I figure out what they variant they are and exactly what they are doing now that they are more common. It is likely to dominate on maps that have more armor pop and uptimes but said maps don't exist and we don't know what form they will take etc.
Maybe ''Tank Hunter'' should be self-explaining.

That hasn't quite worked out so well for the Tank Hunter Attack Plane...
I actually saw one the other day! I was shocked. At first I thought it was an FT with some godly driver I couldn't find who was binning me from across the map or something.

NoctyrneSAGA

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277

Saturday, December 31st 2016, 9:51pm

@tankmayvin

Your example of the heat engine comes from real life where we are still discovering how the world works and are unable to alter the laws of nature.

BF1 is a video game where the designers and developers of the game can make it work however they wish. There is nothing unknown to them.

The two are not a good comparison.

Theory can very well become actualized in a video game. Look at highly advanced players like punchRulle or more recently Relaaa who has gained the nickname "the human aimbot."



Remember, just because you can't do it doesn't mean no one can.

Also, technical discussion subforums were set up for this sort of theory-crafting in the first place. See Battlefield 4.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

  • "tankmayvin" started this thread

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278

Saturday, December 31st 2016, 10:49pm

Maybe ''Tank Hunter'' should be self-explaining.
It is, but that doesn't imply it's actually good at it. There are enough vehicle false choices in BF1 you could be forgiven for not thinking the TH is actually good at killing tanks.
@tankmayvin

Your example of the heat engine comes from real life where we are still discovering how the world works and are unable to alter the laws of nature.

BF1 is a video game where the designers and developers of the game can make it work however they wish. There is nothing unknown to them.

The two are not a good comparison.

Theory can very well become actualized in a video game. Look at highly advanced players like punchRulle or more recently Relaaa who has gained the nickname "the human aimbot."



Remember, just because you can't do it doesn't mean no one can.

Also, technical discussion subforums were set up for this sort of theory-crafting in the first place. See Battlefield 4.
The game designers aren't infallible and they clearly make copious mistakes. Game balance is tough from the dev perspective and DICE has a clear track record of major oopsies, many of which persist throughout the prime life of the game. They are neither all knowing nor infallible.

On the balance, things tend not to change as much as we'd like. I farmed the hell out of enemy tanks with the STAFF + AP wombo combo for hundreds of hours. They never patched out the IFV wombo combo in BF3, at least not before I moved on to BF4. That is to say, the meta is often persistent even with glaring issues.

You're nitpicking my example: It illustrates that simple theory does not automatically and directly translate to the real thing.

You're also still missing my point. Lets take it to the extreme for the sake of clarity. Lets make a hypothetical vehicle that has three guns, but the field of fire of all of those guns is such that they can never fire at the same target at the same time. I would be a totally false assumption to treat this vehicle's theoretical DPS to encompass all three guns against a single point target.

The landship is not such an extreme case, but the inability to admit that it will not reliably be able to focus fire some of the time strikes me as effectively being a pig-headed theorist.

I'm an experimental scientist, I run into that type all of the time so it's not an uncommon interaction.

I don't really care about those people because I'm never going to run into them in a server, you'd need to have three of them in the same vehicle, and I don't see the landship as being traumatically overpowered the way the wombo combos were.

Relaa has less tank kills in BF4 than I score half way through a typical round. He'd probably be amazing at vehicles if he cared to bother. Also no matter how skilled you are, fields of view and hard coded slew/turning rates remain a limiting reality regardless of skill.

Your example isn't applicable.

This post has been edited 3 times, last edit by "tankmayvin" (Dec 31st 2016, 11:04pm)


NoctyrneSAGA

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279

Saturday, December 31st 2016, 11:33pm

but the field of fire of all of those guns is such that they can never fire at the same target at the same time. I would be a totally false assumption to treat this vehicle's theoretical DPS to encompass all three guns against a single point target.


Yes, it would be a false assumption because those guns are actually unable to fire at the same target at the same time.

It is ACTUALLY unable to direct all 3 guns at one target and therefore is physically limited to firing sequentially.

The landship is not such an extreme case, but the inability to admit that it will not reliably be able to focus fire some of the time strikes me as effectively being a pig-headed theorist.


The landship is not the same though.

It is capable of converging all three guns on one target.

People seem to exaggerate its convergence to be something like 100m when really it's probably no more than 10m.

This makes the space of impossible convergence very narrow. It's not unable to focus fire "some of the time." It's going to be focus fire "almost all of the time."



Flip through this album for a test on the distance where both cannons can strike the exact same spot.

First three images show the sponsons aimed downwards. The next three show it being fired pretty much straight forward.

Notice how if you aim downwards, the minimum distance for both guns to strike the same point is definitely not 100m. It's extremely close.

Therefore, it is entirely possible for all three guns to fire at the same target at the same time. No need to rotate the landship.

Point the tank at the target and all three cannons will be able to reach most of the time.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

yugas42

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Saturday, December 31st 2016, 11:36pm

It has become apparent that while this thread still has some usefulness pertaining to the original topic at hand, most of the points that can be made have been made and rebutted as well. There is no one specific reason that I find it appropriate to lock this thread other than it seems to have run its course mostly peacefully and it should probably stop there. The thread will remain visible to the public for future reference.