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Sunday, November 13th 2016, 11:54pm

Apparently British tank ammo consisted mostly of a "common shell" type and a "steel shell" type. The "steel shell" was a little bit slimmer and got better penetration.


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Monday, November 14th 2016, 12:05am

Apparently British tank ammo consisted mostly of a "common shell" type and a "steel shell" type. The "steel shell" was a little bit slimmer and got better penetration.

That must be what the Anti-Tank Cannons fire for the Tank Hunter Landship and the Heavy Breakthrough Tank then.

By the way, the link to an image you tried to post was broken.

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Monday, November 14th 2016, 12:57am

Apparently British tank ammo consisted mostly of a "common shell" type and a "steel shell" type. The "steel shell" was a little bit slimmer and got better penetration.


Read mah post :P

The 57mm guns used with variation on all of the British ww1 heavies (mk1-mk8, it was shortened with the mk 4 onward) were derived from the Hotchkiss QF6 light naval gun.

It had APHE, HE and shrapnel ammunition types.

The A7V used a different 57mm, the Maxim-Cockerill-Nordenfelt.

The A7V and landship variants in BF1 are complete fantasy. The FT variants have a basis in reality, minus the insane performance of the autocannon cannister shell.

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Monday, November 14th 2016, 9:38am

Battlefield has a very long history of confusing weapon type effects with their real life analogs, down to confusing the shell silhouettes with their real life counterparts.

In real life shells AP refers to armor piercing. These may be some combination of:

solid shot (AP)
solid shot with a penetrating cap (APC)
solid shot with ballistic cap (APBC)
solid shot with a ballistic and penetrating cap (APCBC)
composite solid shot (APCR)
high velocity composite shell with or without ballistic cap (HVAP)
solid shot with high explosive burster charge (APHE)
sub-caliber solid shot with sabot (APDS)
subcaliber long rod with sabot (APFSDS)

That covers shell types designed to bust armor via the penetration of the target with a solid bullet. You will not that one type contains a small mass of high explosive (HE) designed to burst the shell after it penetrates the target and do more internal damage.

Then there are the various shells which use high explosive:

HE - just a shell filled with explosive and a relatively thin metal casing. Does damage via blast and fragmentation of the shell. Large HE shells can still do impressive damage against armor of course.
HESH - explosive charge squashes against armor/concrete and is then detonated so it spalls or shear plugs the armor. Also effective against infantry by dint of the fact that it's got loads of HE in it.
HEAT - uses explosive to drive a hypervelocity superplastic jet to penetrate armor. Also effective against infantry because it's got a load of HE plus casing.

Now back to battlefield. BF1 treats it's shells as either HE, or AP that is actually APHE. If you use APHE you get better anti tank performance and ballistics but a smaller blast radius and a smaller 100% damage radius compared to "HE". Then there is the howitzer in the FT, that is HE but deals the most damage to armor out of any tank based weapon in the game.

in BF1 pretty much anything that explodes (HE, frag, whatever) will do some sort of damage to armor. Frag does very little, HE does a lot and can have a large vehicle blast template (large bomber bombs, AT grenade), note that the tank HE doesn't do splash to tanks.

AFAIK only the A7V breakthrough gets the AP gun. I'd need to check files on the Tank Hunter Landship though.

As for the autocannons, the breakthrough gets those, so does the FT flanker plus there is the autocannon on the attack plane and the gunner autocannons on the boat and the bomber. Are these all the same autocannon? They really don't feel the same. The breakthrough and flanker ones seem to have way less spread but that could be a platform issue; tanks being slow stable things.
FT howitzer is 75mm cannon and thats reason he does so big damage to other tanks. not because HE or AP. A7V and Landship have 57mm, while standard FT17 have 37mm cannon. I don't know what how large is on arty truck i think its 57 or even bigger.

I don't think beakthrought have same autocannon as FT17. FT17 have i think bigger cannon.

Also we know type of shells and what they do at least i do know, i have 2000h of war thunder and 1000 of WoT. Also we know Battlfield is not realistic.

All we are discussing is what are differences in AT vs HE shells in game, not if they are realistic. In BF4 HE was flying slower but was better for infantry, while AP was like laser but i didnt have splash damage. While normal APHE was mid ground. Also every type did different damage to armor.
Thats what i would like to know here. Does one fly faster than another, does on drop more and does AT do more damage or does it only have less chance of ricochet? ;)

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Monday, November 14th 2016, 9:57am



FT howitzer is 75mm cannon and thats reason he does so big damage to other tanks. not because HE or AP. A7V and Landship have 57mm, while standard FT17 have 37mm cannon. I don't know what how large is on arty truck i think its 57 or even bigger.

I don't think beakthrought have same autocannon as FT17. FT17 have i think bigger cannon.

Also we know type of shells and what they do at least i do know, i have 2000h of war thunder and 1000 of WoT. Also we know Battlfield is not realistic.

All we are discussing is what are differences in AT vs HE shells in game, not if they are realistic. In BF4 HE was flying slower but was better for infantry, while AP was like laser but i didnt have splash damage. While normal APHE was mid ground. Also every type did different damage to armor.
Thats what i would like to know here. Does one fly faster than another, does on drop more and does AT do more damage or does it only have less chance of ricochet? ;)
Gun caliber alone does not determine the penetration capability of a projectile. The FT howitzer has great anti tank capability because the game designers decided it should have that capability, not because it makes any logical sense.

75mm HE throwers traditionally had way lower penetrating capability than the higher velocity 40-60 mm guns in the WW1/WW2 context, not that WW1 tanks had meaningful armor.

The A7V breakthrough, FT flanker, MAS boat, and both bombers are listed as having 20mm autocannons as do the ground support attack planes. I'm inclined to think they are all the same basic gun, but the flanker has a magazine while the crewed weapons are heat based.

The 57mm AP has lower drop than the other 57mm, but much lower splash, the 75mm howitzer has even worse speed/drop.

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Monday, November 14th 2016, 10:11am




Gun caliber alone does not determine the penetration capability of a projectile. The FT howitzer has great anti tank capability because the game designers decided it should have that capability, not because it makes any logical sense.

75mm HE throwers traditionally had way lower penetrating capability than the higher velocity 40-60 mm guns in the WW1/WW2 context, not that WW1 tanks had meaningful armor.

The A7V breakthrough, FT flanker, MAS boat, and both bombers are listed as having 20mm autocannons as do the ground support attack planes. I'm inclined to think they are all the same basic gun, but the flanker has a magazine while the crewed weapons are heat based.

The 57mm AP has lower drop than the other 57mm, but much lower splash, the 75mm howitzer has even worse speed/drop.
I dunno why do you relate to real life when it come to this. You alone said BF franchise don't follow real life but rather mess things up for balance. This could be here.

Also Howitzer have huge shell with probably lot of explosive and so it tears apart other tank, HE shells dont always do penetration but fragments inside tank will make damage. Tanks in WW1 IRL and probably in game have 30mm armor or less and so 75mm shell is huge so it is posibly that it will penetrate armor even if does not have 40mm pen.
But in game they made ti so becasue of balance, slow projectile, huge drop and tank without moving turret. So with all those negativ thing good one is high damage to both tanks and infanty.

Also i noticed field guns with 57mm does good damage to tank so it could be they have AT ammo.

But we are in bit of offtopic. I just want to know differences, if someone did REAL test and not speaking of RL or how should be.

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Monday, November 14th 2016, 10:28am

Gun caliber alone does not determine the penetration capability of a projectile. The FT howitzer has great anti tank capability because the game designers decided it should have that capability, not because it makes any logical sense.

75mm HE throwers traditionally had way lower penetrating capability than the higher velocity 40-60 mm guns in the WW1/WW2 context, not that WW1 tanks had meaningful armor.

The A7V breakthrough, FT flanker, MAS boat, and both bombers are listed as having 20mm autocannons as do the ground support attack planes. I'm inclined to think they are all the same basic gun, but the flanker has a magazine while the crewed weapons are heat based.

The 57mm AP has lower drop than the other 57mm, but much lower splash, the 75mm howitzer has even worse speed/drop.
I dunno why do you relate to real life when it come to this. You alone said BF franchise don't follow real life but rather mess things up for balance. This could be here.

Also Howitzer have huge shell with probably lot of explosive and so it tears apart other tank, HE shells dont always do penetration but fragments inside tank will make damage. Tanks in WW1 IRL and probably in game have 30mm armor or less and so 75mm shell is huge so it is posibly that it will penetrate armor even if does not have 40mm pen.
But in game they made ti so becasue of balance, slow projectile, huge drop and tank without moving turret. So with all those negativ thing good one is high damage to both tanks and infanty.

Also i noticed field guns with 57mm does good damage to tank so it could be they have AT ammo.

But we are in bit of offtopic. I just want to know differences, if someone did REAL test and not speaking of RL or how should be.
Because reality informs in game descriptions and the expected performance of a shell and then the gameplay deviates from this - its bad game design to dabble a little in reality but then throw off intuition.

For eg, in BF4 the HE shell in fact depicts a HEAT shell but in reality doesn't do better in terms of anti armor DPS than the solid shot AP shell (which also hilarious had better anti infantry capability).

Pretty much any shell of any caliber will wreck any of the WW1 tanks IRL. The various british mk tanks had a mere 12 mm of armor. The A7V used 10-30mm of mild steel. A 75mm shell would totally breach said armor. But with heavy armor HE does not penetrate it, the fragments certainly don't. Especially heavy HE shells can fracture or shear armor.

The field gun fires the same 57 mm shell as the 'HE" guns on the typical tanks.

No one has done any testing because there are no private servers, however you can look in the game data files.

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Monday, November 14th 2016, 12:28pm

Because reality informs in game descriptions and the expected performance of a shell and then the gameplay deviates from this - its bad game design to dabble a little in reality but then throw off intuition.

For eg, in BF4 the HE shell in fact depicts a HEAT shell but in reality doesn't do better in terms of anti armor DPS than the solid shot AP shell (which also hilarious had better anti infantry capability).

Pretty much any shell of any caliber will wreck any of the WW1 tanks IRL. The various british mk tanks had a mere 12 mm of armor. The A7V used 10-30mm of mild steel. A 75mm shell would totally breach said armor. But with heavy armor HE does not penetrate it, the fragments certainly don't. Especially heavy HE shells can fracture or shear armor.

The field gun fires the same 57 mm shell as the 'HE" guns on the typical tanks.

No one has done any testing because there are no private servers, however you can look in the game data files.
Ok you looked at game data files? Ok keep it simple.
So which one does more damage again vehicles AT or HE? And does one fly slower or drop more than other? And does MarkV do more damage than A7V since you or someone else said they have differend cannons.

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Monday, November 14th 2016, 3:21pm

So which one does more damage again vehicles AT or HE?

This can't be deduced from game files alone, since multipliers play big role here (reason why machine gun does loads of dmg to lighter vehicle than larger vehicle etcetc), and you can't obtain these multipliers from files.
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

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Monday, November 14th 2016, 9:11pm

Because reality informs in game descriptions and the expected performance of a shell and then the gameplay deviates from this - its bad game design to dabble a little in reality but then throw off intuition.

For eg, in BF4 the HE shell in fact depicts a HEAT shell but in reality doesn't do better in terms of anti armor DPS than the solid shot AP shell (which also hilarious had better anti infantry capability).

Pretty much any shell of any caliber will wreck any of the WW1 tanks IRL. The various british mk tanks had a mere 12 mm of armor. The A7V used 10-30mm of mild steel. A 75mm shell would totally breach said armor. But with heavy armor HE does not penetrate it, the fragments certainly don't. Especially heavy HE shells can fracture or shear armor.

The field gun fires the same 57 mm shell as the 'HE" guns on the typical tanks.

No one has done any testing because there are no private servers, however you can look in the game data files.
Ok you looked at game data files? Ok keep it simple.
So which one does more damage again vehicles AT or HE? And does one fly slower or drop more than other? And does MarkV do more damage than A7V since you or someone else said they have differend cannons.
I already told you this:

The 75mm howitzer does the most damage against armor, followed by the 57mm AP and then the 57mm HE on a per shot basis. By how much I don't know, as Miffy said we don't have access to the mults and I haven't been able to actually test these things because there are no private servers yet.

57mm AP has better ballistics than the 57mm HE and the 75mm howitzer has the worst ballistics.

57mm AP has much worse blast template than the 57mm, I haven't looked at the blast template of the 75mm.

Only the heavy breakthrough A7V has 57mm AP, all the other tank guns are 57mm HE. Only one I'm not sure about is the tank hunter landship.