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  • "Veritable" started this thread

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11

Saturday, October 15th 2016, 11:29pm

I think the "burst" length should be whichever nets the fastest TTK.

Well, I suspect that the answer to that will be "pace-your-shot," shoot once and then pause to recover... for EVERY GUN. I think that will always achieve the lowest TTK. But, this is "game science" after all, so let's take some sample cases and find out.

-----

In the current study, I am projecting the M1916 Optical 3RB to do just over 100 damage at 40m. This is with 3 rounds fired at max RPM, accounting for SIPS and H-Recoil, and then pausing to recover... which is done in 54 / 60 frames. Thus, I said ~53.61930295 frames to achieve the kill.

If we take the same gun and do shoot-recover-shoot, according to Post #3 I said you shoot once every 0.3s, which is done in 18 / 60 frames. Hitrater of course says that with 0.135 degree of Spread, and no SIPS and no H-Recoil, you have 100% hitrate. Its 8mm Mauser bullet is programmed to do 37.3 damage per hit. Thus, you will kill in... ~48.25737265 frames.

2RB-then-recover? Double-tap? According to the "Calculator," it just takes 2x the time... 0.6s, which is done in 36 / 60 frames. Hitrater says to expect 1.93 hits per 2 rounds fired. Same 37.3 damage per hit, thus expected damage of 71.989 per 2RB. Thus, you will kill in... ~50.00764005 frames

Not a huge difference, but 1RB is "best." Hardest to do, yes, but still technically "best."

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Let's look at the best 80m gun, the Mondragon Optical, at 80m. 3RB for it is done in 47 / 60 frames. Expected damage is 69.3 per 3 rounds fired at this range. Thus I said ~67.82106782 frames to achieve the kill.

1RB: Shoot once every 0.25s, which is done in 15 / 60 frames. Again, Hitrater says that with 0.135 degree of Spread, no SIPS and no H-Recoil, 100% hitrate. Its 8mm Mauser bullet is doing 35 damage. Thus, you will kill in... ~42.85714285 frames.

2RB: Shoot once every 0.5166666667s, which is done in 31 / 60 frames. Hitrater says 1.59 hits per 2RB. Same 35 damage, thus expected damage of 55.65 per 2RB. Thus, you will kill in... ~55.70530098 frames.

Now that is a big gap. You'd kill ~37% faster if you stop shooting BTK and instead just pace-your-shot.

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Of course, it makes sense that the further you are, the shorter "burst-length" you should be doing. So, let's go really close, 10m, and look at one of the best close-in Medic weapon: the Autoloader-8 .25 Extended.

5RB that I looked at: 70 / 60 frames. 4.99 / 5 hits. Expected damage is 189.62 per 5RB. Thus ~36.91593713 frames to kill.

1RB: 14 / 60 frames. 100% hitrate. 38 damage per hit. Kill in ~36.84210526 frames.

2RB: 28 / 60 frames. 2 / 2 hits. 76 damage per burst. Kill in the same ~36.84210526 frames.

3RB: 42 / 60 frames. 3 / 3 hits. 114 damage per burst. Again, kill in the same ~36.84210526 frames.

4RB: 56 / 60 frames. 4 / 4 hits. 152 damage per burst. Once again, kill in the same ~36.84210526 frames.

1RB to 4RB achieve the same TTK. It is only when you no longer achieve 100% hitrate, that your effectiveness start to drop. Even then, only slightly.

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So... do I see your point? Yes, kind of. As soon as your hitrate drop below 100% for the burst length, you start to lose effectiveness. However, for the Medic rifles, based on their stats, you will only be able to fire at max RPM and still maintain 100% hitrate at POINT BLANK RANGE. For the Auto-8 .25 Extended example, I checked, 4RB stopped being 100% at 12m. 3RB? 15m. 2RB? 23m. 1RB then lets you maintain 100% out to 75m.

With at least the same TTK, applicable to the biggest range of engagement distances, why wouldn't you just train yourself to always shoot 1RB?

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So why didn't I simulate each gun with 1RB? Because then I'd have to throw H-Recoil out the window. Yes, even though it doesn't affect Hitrate, you still need to "recover" it using Recoil Decrease. Unfortunately, we STILL don't know how exactly Recoil is recovered, unlike we know SDEC. I can't include something that we can't calculate....

Also, this is a holdover from BF4 studies, where you'd have to throw out the majority of attachment combos when you simulate with short burst lengths. BF1 is much simpler, so maybe a simpler approach is better.

Still, I personally feel perfect shoot-recover-shoot clickrate is hard to achieve in the heat of Battlefield. Shoot-to-BTK is a more "average BF player" approach. Otherwise, I'd have to add in some sort of "difficulty" rating... and that is totally subjective. EG the BF3 AN-94 heroes vs. everyone else....

Finally, maybe what you suggest is more suited to a deep-dive of 1 weapon, teaching people exactly what burst length and what variant to use at what range. This is a comparison of everyone in the class, to show people WHICH one to use, and I hope to expand it to cover other classes eventually, like I did in BF4. Different scope for different folks, I think.

After all, you have to GROUND the study on SOMETHING. Otherwise, how can you COMPARE different things?

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12

Sunday, October 16th 2016, 2:07pm

Unfortunately, we STILL don't know how exactly Recoil is recovered, unlike we know SDEC. I can't include something that we can't calculate....


@Veritable

Although it is slightly off-topic ...

Experience: Put yourself in front of the test range building in BF4. Shoot M249 (important: nonsymmetrical Recoil H), aiming to a recognizable point, a long burst (80 bullets or more). The Recoil V raises up to Recoil V Maximum (about 20 bullets). From there the bursts goes left by the accumulated deflection of Recoil H. When you release the trigger weapon recovers following an apparent trajectory of 45 degrees up to the vertical of starting point and then continues falling vertically. The move is apparently at uniform speed.

This would mean:

- The Recoil V and Recoil H are recovered at the same rate.
- Recovery is linear ( / sec constant).

Approximately this:



Recording the screen we can deduce the scale because you can know the Recoil V Max, the final aiming point and thus recovery speed by frame. It can be confirmed if the recovery rate is uniform or not and both vertical and horizontal rate are the same.

I have not the right tools to do. Some expert in pixel analysis ?

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Sunday, October 16th 2016, 4:03pm

@leptis

Note that this is a BF1 discussion where recoil decrease is different from BF4. BF4's recoil decreased is detailed here: BF4 Miscellaneous Info | Symthic
And to be more exact:
  1. Calculate the recoil decrease value with the formula in link: \( \Delta r \)
  2. Calculate vector from current recoil position to the zero-recoil point and set its length to recoil decrease: \( X \subset \mathbb{R}^2 , \; |X| = \Delta r \)
  3. Minus \( X \) from current recoil: \( \text{recoil}_{t+1} = \text{recoil}_t - X \) (and clip recoil to be >= 0)

I had some graphs about this made via memory probing but I think I have deleted them.

Regarding BF1: I guess we have to start memory stuff again to get hang of BF1 recoil decrease, yay :v
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • InterimAegis - Weapon comparisons/scoring.
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • pmax - Statistical analysis of BF4 players/games.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

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14

Sunday, October 16th 2016, 7:03pm

Note that this is a BF1 discussion where recoil decrease is different from BF4. BF4's recoil decreased is detailed here: BF4 Miscellaneous Info | Symthic


Surely I have explained wrong. I wanted to provide a quick method to assess Recoil recovery in BF1 with a similar technique method. I used the example of BF4 because unfortunately my computer is not able to properly run BF1. The feeling in BF4 (just feeling) is that there are two distinct parts in the path of recovery which is what we intended to accept or refute ... because a parabolic trajectory asymptotic to the vertical line could produce the same feeling.

But if Miffyli (source of all wisdom :) ) has direct memory readings ... "Roma locuta, causa finita".

In any case the method may be valid for a first approximation in BF1.

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15

Sunday, October 16th 2016, 8:05pm


Surely I have explained wrong. I wanted to provide a quick method to assess Recoil recovery in BF1 with a similar technique method. I used the example of BF4 because unfortunately my computer is not able to properly run BF1. The feeling in BF4 (just feeling) is that there are two distinct parts in the path of recovery which is what we intended to accept or refute ... because a parabolic trajectory asymptotic to the vertical line could produce the same feeling.

Oh, my bad ^^. I thought you were mixing up BF4 and BF1. Sorry!

I understand why the BF4 recoil reduction seems weird though, but on the other hand the current amount of recoil is stored as a 2D vector in memory (pitch and yaw) so it's easy to do things via vectors like this.
However BF1 one should be more interesting and from what I hear it's more realistic when it comes to human compensating for recoil.
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • InterimAegis - Weapon comparisons/scoring.
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • pmax - Statistical analysis of BF4 players/games.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

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16

Sunday, October 16th 2016, 8:25pm

Oh, oh wait.

So by first examination you guys say, that how recoil works in BF1 has changed compared to BF4 ?

How you get to these first conclusions ?
still playin' Motorstorm

Miffyli

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17

Sunday, October 16th 2016, 8:53pm

Oh, oh wait.

So by first examination you guys say, that how recoil works in BF1 has changed compared to BF4 ?

How you get to these first conclusions ?

As far I am aware the recoil increase works as before, but recoil decrease is different.

And for recoil decrease: If you compare BF1 weapons to BF4, the recoil decrease is almost always 1/2 in BF1 compared to BF4 (almost no matter which weapons you compare), while recoil increase values are generally on same scale. While this necessarily mean anything it's still worth of checking. Also tits might be whispering things.
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • InterimAegis - Weapon comparisons/scoring.
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • pmax - Statistical analysis of BF4 players/games.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

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Monday, October 17th 2016, 2:48am

Other than the mild increase of the minimum damage for the M1907 SL variants from 21 to 23, what else were changed about the rifles from the Open Beta?

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Monday, October 17th 2016, 3:08am

Other than the mild increase of the minimum damage for the M1907 SL variants from 21 to 23, what else were changed about the rifles from the Open Beta?


M1916 got corrected from 20+1 to 25+1.

Switching to/from K-Bullets now has proper ammo-swapping animations, which I'd consider gameplay-related. On most rifles this means you lose one round in your magazine when you swap to K-Bullets (not entirely lose, it just gets moved to spare) because you eject it before inserting the K-Bullet. If your SMLE has 10 rounds and 20 spare, and you swap to K-Bullets, when you swap back to normal ammo you'll have 9/21.

Not sure otherwise, but I'm probably forgetting a thing or two.
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Monday, October 17th 2016, 3:22am

M1916 got corrected from 20+1 to 25+1.

Ah, true. I remember someone here bringing that up as a potential change after the Open Beta. Was that you?

Now there is even less reason to use the Mondragon over the Selbstlader M1916 outside of Hardcore mode. The Autoloading 8 .35 with its high rate of fire and good bullet damage is also brought to its knees with that small ammunition capacity. I tried using it a lot throughout the Play First Trials, but it just is not practical for any kind of engagement as a below average player.

By the way, is the Symthic forum not responding and crashing when replying for anyone else today? MathJax is constantly lagging my Microsoft Edge browser.