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  • "Veritable" started this thread

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Thursday, October 13th 2016, 11:07pm

BF1 Medic Self-Loading Rifles - "Origin Access" Stats - Gets the Big List Treatment

Methodology mostly follows this: BF4 BTK Burst Length DPS + Useability Combined Ranking

Stats from: BF1 Weapon charts (Damage, accuracy, etc.) | Symthic

Changes: "Burst Length" is set to 50m Bullets To Kill, which is just under 2x of how I looked at BF4 guns. BF1 is apparently a longer-ranged game, and also I feel this setup creates a more "realistic" Burst Length that people will most likely be shooting with these guns. This results in the following....

3 rounds fired-then-recover: 8mm Mauser (Luger 1906, M1916, Mondragon)
4 rounds fired-then-recover: 6.5mm Carcano (Cei-Rigotti) and .35 Rem (Autoloading-8 .35)
5 rounds fired-then-recover: .351SL Win (M1907) and .25 Rem (Autoloading-8 .25)

Google Drive broke how I was using it to host images, so please see the Attachment below for the usual chart.

Google Sheets link to the worksheet: BF1 Medic BTK FTK List - Google Sheets

-----

According to my understanding of Shoot-and-Recover, under these settings (Factory versions 0.25 SIPS but 7.5 SDEC, Modified 0.125 SIPS but 3.75 SDEC, 60Hz Tickrate, 50m BTK Burst Length), I have both the Factory and Modified shoot-and-recover at exactly the same time. That is neat, but unfortunately Modified usually performs better while taking the same time to do so, so according to my methodology I haven't found any Factory version as "better" than Modified.

This is unlike BF4's final iteration that depending on RoF / SIPS, it is "better" to run NoGrip. This is due to bigger SIPS / SDEC disparity between BF4's HBar + NoGrip vs. Comp + AFG / Ergo, than BF1's Factory vs. Modified.

So, my suggestion is to look at Factory vs. Factory, Optical vs. Optical, Marksman vs. Marksman, if possible.

-----

As for the M1916 Optical vs. Autoloader-8 Marksman for the top-dog, the Remington can put out 4 shots (at 30 Dmg this is BTK even at long range) 0.1s faster than the Mauser can shoot 3x (which at 35 Dmg is ITS BTK), while having the same H-Recoil. V-Recoil is better on the Remington.

Even between 50m to 80m I have the Remington at ~20% faster TTK than the Mauser. So, how do they get so close in the end? My Reload scores give the Mauser's 25+1 magazine a massive 75% advantage.

So, if you can work that stripper clip like a boss (no butter fingers here!), then go with the Autoloader .35. For a more "modern" experience akin to BF4 DMRs, then use the M1916.

-----

On the other hand, the Luger 1906 is by far the "best" Factory version. If it can be "modified" in the future, for example an Optical version, then I'm pretty sure it will shoot up to the top of the chart.

-----

For CQB fighting vs. Assault, that is where the M1907 Sweeper / Trench and the Auto-8 .25 Extended shine... but you have to be REALLY close, like 10m and Hipfire. If you can ADS, then the .35 Remington's 359RPM + 42 Dmg takes over again.

-----

For long-range fighting, a dark-horse is the Mondragon Optical. I have it just ahead of the Luger and just behind the M1916. Versus the Mauser, you trade Reload for faster TTK.

-----

I will say that things are FAIRLY close. Similar to BF4 endgame's DMRs, there is nothing that I can definitely say "don't use." For "to use," the Autoloader-8 .35 Marksman will be what I will be aiming for starting on Monday.
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This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "Veritable" (Oct 14th 2016, 5:23pm)


marbleduck

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Friday, October 14th 2016, 12:30am

Factory weapons reset recoil and spread faster, so the human can shoot faster and can get a little bit more effective RoF (though max RoF is still the same). They also get worse ADS speed. While the scoped ones are technically better at all ranges, if you are already hitting 100% body shot hitrate (i.e., using it under 68m) then you should always use the Factory preset since there's no reason to take the hit in spread and recoil decrease if your accuracy is already good enough.

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You started playing bf3 and never touched bfc1/2. Please do yourself a favor and shutdown your generic cod channel down"

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"Marbleduck you don't know shit lol levelcap knows more than you do you cant talk about how someone puts up garbage when you do yourself your a newcomer to YouTube acting like you know shit step up in the food chain first then you have the right to talk otherwise your just a fish trying to compete with sharks"

"Why don't we just witness "LevelCap vs MarbleDuck" One on One both on Battlefield 3 and Battlefield 4 seen as there is so much Controversy about the Two Youtubers"

"stfu cunt, BF3 was way better end of discussion"

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"please talk like a normal person and not like a professional"

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Friday, October 14th 2016, 8:48am

Here are the "optimal click rates" as dictated by the listed RPM / SIPS / SDEC values, using the Shoot-and-Recover Calculator

By timing your firing commands with these RPMs, usually by pacing yourself using a metronome, you can fire each bullet at Base Spread, which for semi-auto rifles in Frostbite-engined Battlefield games has long been the most efficient way to use them. This is also what Marble is referring to, where you expect the Factory versions allow you to not having to wait as long to shoot the next round, essentially trading fancy stats for better recovery.

Cei-Rigotti (299RPM Maximum)
#1 - Factory - 258RPM
#1 - Optical - 258RPM
#3 - Trench - 225RPM

Luger 1906 (299RPM Max)
#1 - "Factory" - 258RPM

M1916 (224RPM Max)
#1 - Factory - 200RPM
#1 - Optical - 200RPM
#1 - Marksman - 200RPM

Mondragon (Max 257RPM)
#1 - Optical - 240RPM
#2 - Sniper - 212RPM
#2 - Storm - 212RPM

Autoloading-8 .35 (Max 359RPM)
#1 - Factory - 300RPM
#1 - Marksman - 300RPM

Autoloading-8 .25 (Max 359RPM)
#1 - Extended - 258RPM

M1907 (Max 299RPM)
#1 - Factory - 258RPM
#2 - Sweeper - 225RPM
#2 - Trench - 225RPM

-----

From applying BF4 Shooting Mechanics to these figures, now with 60Hz Tickrate, based on these stats, I only see the M1907 Factory vs. its other variants showing such mechanic in play. And then, looking at its damage model, I doubt people would be using it as a shoot-and-recover weapon, as it basically begs to be spammed. The Sweeper, in particular, is fully automatic, I believe?

The Cei-Rigotti, Factory shoots "faster" than Trench, but then the Optical also manages that.

Autoloading-8 .35, no difference in shooting cadence between Factory and Marksman. M1916, again no difference between all 3 versions... all are equally slooooooooow.

For the high-damage high-velocity 8mm Mauser weapons, the Luger stands out of course but I'm guessing that is a "special" weapon. The Mondragon Optical is the next best thing, allowing you to shoot at 240RPM of guaranteed 3 hits kill, which is why it is ranked where it is in my chart in the 1st post.

I know the effect Marble is talking about... BF4 definitely has it nowadays, but I just don't really see it here. To take effect, I think we need bigger spread between Factory / Modified SDEC. BF4's FAMAS vs. SAR-21 is almost a 3x rate difference, for example.

The stats are currently what they are, though, so for now these are what they are.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Veritable" (Oct 14th 2016, 8:57am)


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Friday, October 14th 2016, 9:45am

Wait, is the fully automatic rate of fire for certain weapons with the option to actually slower than the maximum possible rate of fire via fast clicks of the mouse when the weapon is set to semi-automatic fire mode?

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Friday, October 14th 2016, 7:20pm

@ChineseToTheBone

You have to "time" the "clicks" yourself. With the RPMs listed in the 3rd post, you give the gun enough time to finish its SDEC and thus each shot will be at minimum Spread for your stance.

On the other hand, if you instead "click" at the Max RPM that are listed in the weapon stat, then yes you are putting bullets downrange as fast as possible (the game will not allow you to shoot faster than Max RPM, no matter how fast you can "click"), but the gun will not have any SDEC and thus you will accumulate SIPS until you hit Max Spread. Same as if you took an automatic weapon in BF3 / BF4 and held down the trigger.

In BF3 / launch-BF4 people definitely have "gamed" this mechanic, and took high-RPM automatic Assault Rifles / Carbines and fired rapid 2RB via fast "clicks." With high RPM stats and BF3 / launch-BF4's SDEC values, you didn't have to wait very long at all for the SDEC to finish. The result is an "effective" firing rates that were not much less than if you just held down the trigger, but WAY more accurate due to starting each burst at minimum Spread.

This is no longer so viable in current-BF4, and definitely DO NOT do this in BF1 due to its automatic weapons tend to have SIPS First Shot Multiplier AND Negative SIPS.

Medic self-loading rifles, with no SIPS FSM and positive SIPS? Definitely pace your shots.

Zer0Cod3x

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Saturday, October 15th 2016, 12:21am

You have to "time" the "clicks" yourself. With the RPMs listed in the 3rd post, you give the gun enough time to finish its SDEC and thus each shot will be at minimum Spread for your stance.

On the other hand, if you instead "click" at the Max RPM that are listed in the weapon stat, then yes you are putting bullets downrange as fast as possible (the game will not allow you to shoot faster than Max RPM, no matter how fast you can "click"), but the gun will not have any SDEC and thus you will accumulate SIPS until you hit Max Spread. Same as if you took an automatic weapon in BF3 / BF4 and held down the trigger.

Have you considered that you don't actually need to wait until your spread has reset to min spread? You only need a low enough spread to be able to hit your shots, not necessarily min spread.

For example, with the Luger, at 60 Hz and firing at the upper chest at 50 m, you only have to wait 12 frames in-between shots to have a good chance of killing your target. And under~25 m, you don't really need to pace your shots, you can just shoot at the maximum RoF.

I think it would be helpful to put this sort of information in, as your analysis implies that you have to pace your shots all the time.
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


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Saturday, October 15th 2016, 12:28am

Have you considered that you don't actually need to wait until your spread has reset to min spread? You only need a low enough spread to be able to hit your shots, not necessarily min spread.

For example, with the Luger, at 60 Hz and firing at the upper chest at 50 m, you only have to wait 12 frames in-between shots to have a good chance of killing your target. And under~25 m, you don't really need to pace your shots, you can just shoot at the maximum RoF.

I think it would be helpful to put this sort of information in, as your analysis implies that you have to pace your shots all the time.


Max RoF and Max Min Spread RoF are the only two hard values, and really, only two "needed" values. Considering the tiny frames of time we're talking about, figuring out if you can shoot a tad faster because the spread will still hit at a given range is up to the player to figure out.
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Saturday, October 15th 2016, 12:50am

well, can't you make a graph out of that? optimal rate of fire should consistently go down till max rof-min spread right? so you should be able to just make a graph similar to the damage model ones, just with rof instead of damage, and the line should always point to 100% hit chance at said rof.
wouldn't that work? it doesn't even sound so hard to do compared to other things i've seen done on the forum...

edit: here a shitty ms paint example:
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stuff mostly unrelated to BF4 that interests nobody



bf4
on 13/05/2016
23rd M320FB user on pc(13/05/16)
rush mode score RANK:2794 TOP:2% OUT OF:215398
obliteration mode scoreRANK:994 TOP:1% OUT OF:159466
handgun medals RANK:2236 TOP:2% OUT OF:143874
longest headshot RANK:9512 TOP:4% OUT OF:257589
recon score RANK:10871 TOP:4% OUT OF:274899
general score per minute RANK:10016 TOP:4% OUT OF:294774

bf3
31/3/2012 4:58:

Headshot distance RANK:493* TOP:0%
Revives per assault minute RANK: 6019 TOP: 3%
Headshots / kill percentage RANK:25947 TOP:13%
MVP ribbons RANK:18824 TOP:11%

*= 6 if we not count the EOD BOT headshots

@kataklism

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  • "Veritable" started this thread

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Saturday, October 15th 2016, 1:37am

your analysis implies that you have to pace your shots all the time.

Actually the original post / chart is based on 3-4-5 rounds fired at max RPM, with the "burst" length based on weapon damage.

I'd wager that if you do "optimal clickrate," the TTK will actually drop. I find that to be unrealistic, though... and I, of all people, ought to know that, considering that 85% of my BF4 non-vehicle kills came from DMRs.

So, what remains to be quibbled with is the "burst" length that people end up shooting these guns with. Pace your shot 1 at a time? Double-tap? Triple-tap? Keep shooting until you get a kill marker?

I suppose that I can add 1-and-done and double-tap entries, and then average each gun's performance out. Though, I think "shoot to BTK" is a fairly good representation as to how people end up using these things.

Zer0Cod3x

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Saturday, October 15th 2016, 2:35pm

So, what remains to be quibbled with is the "burst" length that people end up shooting these guns with. Pace your shot 1 at a time? Double-tap? Triple-tap? Keep shooting until you get a kill marker?

I think the "burst" length should be whichever nets the fastest TTK. 12 frame wait between both shots, 10 frame wait between the first and second shots, 12 frame wait between the second and third shots, whatever. The best one.

Instead of grouping all ranges into one "score", as you tend to do, keep the ranges separate. Then input the optimal TTK, and the "burst" method of achieving that TTK.

I think this would be much more helpful than having one overall score for ranges under 50 m, ranges above 50 m, etc, as those sorts of scores don't really help when you're trying to decide between a weapon that performs optimally from 20-30 m, and a weapon that performs optimally from 30-40 m, as by your grouping system, those are accounted for in the same score.


If you do keep your grouping method, you should note that the effective ranges for weapons are different to BF4. This should affect the ranges you group your "scores" in.
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.