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Zer0Cod3x

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21

Thursday, October 13th 2016, 1:21pm

the Huot basically being a knock-off Lewis which itself is already a horrible weapon due to it having mediocre medium range damage output (which is basically the bread and butter of the LMG class), having pathetic ammo, pathetic fire rates and pathetic damage with only marginally better recoil stats to supposedly "balance it out".

Is not being the fastest LMG to return to base spread good enough for you?

The Luger is a knock-off Mondragon which itself is a knockoff Selbstlader. every step gives somewhat better rates of fire while cutting the ammo capacity in half at each hop, which kinda renders the rate of fire obsolete because the less ammo you have the more careful your shots have to be.

Balance is done assuming players of the highest skill level. This means that those skilled players hit all their shots at the optimal click rates (highest RoF accounting for spread). Balance doesn't take into account players who can't aim.

The Luger has the best TTK out of any of the SLRs past about 50 m. But this is "objectively horrid," isn't it?

name me a reason to ever use the MP18 after i've unlocked the Hellriegel. I mean feasible reason, not "well it is somewhat better in that" because that won't fly with its other superior stats. Literally the only feasible advantage the MP18 has is that the Trench has godlike hipfire in comparison, and that the Optical has, well, and optical attachment. But with better ammo, rate of fire and recoil, everyone will use the Hellriegel.

As I said before: better damage output doesn't mean anything if you can't hit your shots.


The MP18 Optical has significantly better spread than the Hellriegel. By how much? Well, the The Hellriegel and MP18 Optical have a 100% chance of hitting the upper chest on their first shot out to ~48 m and ~64 m respectively.

The first shot isn't in the optimal ranges for SMGs though. Let's see the second shot. The second shot out of the Hellriegel has a 100% chance of hitting the upper chest out to ~27 m. The MP18 Optical has a 100% chance to hit the upper chest out to ~35 m.

As you can see, the MP18 Optical is consistently more accurate than the Hellriegel. That's not even mentioning the MP18 Experimental, which is ridiculously more accurate with its three-round burst.


This affects your bursting quite significantly.
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


Miffyli

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22

Thursday, October 13th 2016, 1:40pm

@Miffyli

Do "normal" weapons have a multipoint Damage Line as well ? Some weapons have 3 different values in the graph. And it looks like the damage decrease isnt constantly linear, but like an exponential decrease. Is it like that, or my failure ?

Yeap, especially pistols have this kind of "smooth" curve but it is done with bunch of linear interpolations. Check weapon-info page where you can see the "keypoints".

@NoctyrneSAGA
Aight will look into that. I don't know if I am going to add anything if there's only one multiplier or so (limb one). Kolibri is balanced via multipliers but that seems to be a isolated case (files say 100dmg at close range).

And others: No need to bash that guy (colers) further. Posts about that convo after this will be deleted to avoid derailing, this topic is for feedback.
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

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23

Thursday, October 13th 2016, 3:42pm

Is not being the fastest LMG to return to base spread good enough for you?
Honestly, not really. LMGs work by holding down the trigger. If they overheat they're going to be at base spread anyway. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that spread decrease as a stat is very much meaningless for LMGs.

marbleduck

Smoked Salmon Best Salmon

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24

Thursday, October 13th 2016, 4:18pm

@Miffyli

Do "normal" weapons have a multipoint Damage Line as well ? Some weapons have 3 different values in the graph. And it looks like the damage decrease isnt constantly linear, but like an exponential decrease. Is it like that, or my failure ?

Yeap, especially pistols have this kind of "smooth" curve but it is done with bunch of linear interpolations. Check weapon-info page where you can see the "keypoints".

@NoctyrneSAGA
Aight will look into that. I don't know if I am going to add anything if there's only one multiplier or so (limb one). Kolibri is balanced via multipliers but that seems to be a isolated case (files say 100dmg at close range).

And others: No need to bash that guy (colers) further. Posts about that convo after this will be deleted to avoid derailing, this topic is for feedback.


BF1: | BF1 Multi-Weapon Comparison | Symthic

Comparison shows P08 and M1911 as having the same min damage. This is not consistent with stats page.

Wait, hold on. Maybe the values shown on the mini-graph on the stats page aren't actually the bottom and top values. Either way, it's confusing.

Platoon Marble Duck

Hate Mail

"you obviously don't know what an argument is as there is only one person battling. Do you really fucking think I want subs? You think you can act all big and powerful just because you sit on a computer at least 6 hours a day like the probably nerdy unwanted retard you are with 4.3k subs? You think 4.3k subs is a lot? LOL you need medicine man. I don't want any subs as i just have a google account for other media and writing comments. Think twice before you act. You even said in your video you aren't that great of a player, and the comments agree you aren't. Maybe you should once again think twice before you act, stop being such an annoying, ignorant bastard that everyone wants to shut up, and god, literally, just shut up. Your voice gave me a headache :s´╗┐"

"As a youtuber shouldn't be trying to be reeling in your viewers with exciting stuff being said not your boring ass commentary for your video"

"The more you watch his vid the dumber he gets I swear he's borderline autistic look I got shot behind cover beacuase thin sheets metal are unpenetrable. Bf4 is just as quiet and tactical as bf3 random explosion in the background . Player has dissconected from chat
You started playing bf3 and never touched bfc1/2. Please do yourself a favor and shutdown your generic cod channel down"

"Nice clickb8 Faggot w8ting for your shit tier video to disable comments . Fucking newfag cancer go play some cod you activisiom cock faggot"

"I don't see why he [MarbleDuck] always tries to shit on levelcap he is better and has a million more subs...and also "there isnt a best gun in she game there are guns that are better that others at different engagement distances" yes thats true and whichever is the best/most average at all of them is the "best gun""

"Marbleduck you don't know shit lol levelcap knows more than you do you cant talk about how someone puts up garbage when you do yourself your a newcomer to YouTube acting like you know shit step up in the food chain first then you have the right to talk otherwise your just a fish trying to compete with sharks"

"Why don't we just witness "LevelCap vs MarbleDuck" One on One both on Battlefield 3 and Battlefield 4 seen as there is so much Controversy about the Two Youtubers"

"stfu cunt, BF3 was way better end of discussion"

"Stfu man, you're be littleing the most looked upon Battlefield Youtuber. No one cares about you, how much of an ego you have, or quite frankly your opinion. It's a fucking game.... Does it really fucking matter? Pathetic man."

"fuck you asshole, dont talk shit about total"

"Wtf is your problem? You have no subs and he has millions, yet you pick on him like some kind of stubborn, ignorant, rude child born with a silver spoon is his mouth. It's easy to do that, for example... You said there was no background noise yet there is. You say you're a fairly good player, you're not."

"please talk like a normal person and not like a professional"

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25

Thursday, October 13th 2016, 5:19pm

Is there some kind of 0.99 body multiplier on some of the guns? I can't ever seem to hit a 15 dmg shot with the Lewis gun according to in-game UI (showing up as 14), and it does seem to take a lot of shots to down someone at range.

I'll also echo the sentiment that the gun feels mediocre. Also really dislike that the suppressive variant magically gets to fit nearly 100 bullets in the exact same pan magazine; battlefield 3 and 4 were good at not "gameifying" their weapons and tried to achieve balance with authenticity in mind, mostly

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26

Thursday, October 13th 2016, 5:29pm

So yeah for the support class. Just use the BAR. It outclasses every other support gun.

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27

Thursday, October 13th 2016, 5:34pm

@Miffyli

Feedback: All 3 Mondragon selections are broken in Simple Comparison. Says "Invalid Input." It doesn't matter if you choose any of the Mondragons on one side, the other, or both sides.

For example: BF1 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

Works fine in Multi-Comparison.

-----

As for the Medic semi-auto rifles... I ran some Hitrater yesterday and threw the Optical / Marksman variants into my Big List criteria, and I have... different thoughts than Colers. But will make a new thread for that after I finish with all the other variants and make a graph.

On that tangent, though, it would be awesome if the Bipod modifiers would be in the Attachments place instead of already affecting the gun stats in the Weapon Charts. In "my" class of course I mean the BF1: Mondragˇn Sniper Weapon Stats: Damage, Recoil, RoF, Accuracy etc. | BF1 weapon info | Symthic Would be nice to see what "base" as in bipod not-deployed stats are... better than the Optical version? Worse?

-----

On THAT tangent, no Factory version of the Mondragon? No "modified" version of the Luger 1906?

Miffyli

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28

Thursday, October 13th 2016, 5:44pm

@Veritable
Hmm the fancier "o" in Mondragon is probably breaking that part, will check.
I will remove bipod as "integrated effect" when I have finished working on attachments.
And yeah, some weapons are missing and some weapons are redundant.

@Tiesieman
Limbs probably have 0.93x damage multiplier, and afaik lower torso also has other than 1.0x modifier, so to score OHK kills you need to hit head / chest.
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

This post by "colers" (Thursday, October 13th 2016, 6:13pm) has been deleted by user "Miffyli" (Thursday, October 13th 2016, 6:56pm) with the following reason: Derailing topic. Sorry, I said about this before

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30

Thursday, October 13th 2016, 7:35pm

What do you guys think is one off the better shotguns now?