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NoctyrneSAGA

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381

Wednesday, March 29th 2017, 10:37am

The Ammo Box will continue to be irrelevant up to the moment it becomes necessary
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

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Wednesday, March 29th 2017, 10:45am

Yeah but he will elementally disagree, I said ammo was rarely an issue, because of death mostly and finding an ammo crate wasn't either. Also you could always look for a suport player and hit him with an axe.

With the new system they would have shifted the focus from looking for a support, to the support looking for the guys to resupply them so they could do their job again. I still think the way to go is to buff the ammo crates and pouches to allow a mobile and therefore constant resupply, to not break the flow of the game.
It does also help with balancing potentially very strong gagdets, like the K-Bullet.
In the proposed system overcharged K-bullets were blatantly OP - lol planes. For assaults constantly dying they were looking at a short pool on ammo that would eventually find them either support hunting or sitting around for the passive to kick back to full. Why? Getting sent back to the respawn screen always seemed like a fair way to get a 100% capable toon again to me.

I'm actually in no way against the concept of passive regen, especially for stuff that is class core like the flare gun. The flare gun absolutely should have passive regen so that can have some sort of meaningful uptime without hunting down a support player and poking him until he drops. That has been a consistent issue for the throwable recon gadgets for quite some time.

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Wednesday, March 29th 2017, 10:47am

The Ammo Box will continue to be irrelevant up to the moment it becomes necessary
Support is in no way an underplayed class in BF1. The pouches let you mash Q to throw anyone a packet. If people just played the game with some modicum of competence reliable re-supply would be a non-issue.

NoctyrneSAGA

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Wednesday, March 29th 2017, 10:52am

The doublethink assumption that Ammo Boxes are always present and never present is why they are the sole source of ammo yet players are spawned with so much ammo they will not really need a box
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


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Wednesday, March 29th 2017, 10:54am

You still can only shoot one K-Bullet at a time. Since they don't behave like normal bullets and each one has to be re-chambered, it gives planes a shitload of time to get the hell out of dodge, especially for a good pilot. Plus you're not even guaranteed to hit every shot you can get in. Overcharged K-Bullets would be no different than non-overcharged K-Bullets against planes. Tanks? Sure, but not planes.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

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No Slowdown Data

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AccelerationInputThreshold 0.98
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Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho


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Wednesday, March 29th 2017, 12:22pm

Considering that the passionate (and ignorant) push for highly restrictive gameplay from the community is never going to go away, we might as well work on a compromise.

If the community really does not want passive regeneration of health or ammo, why not just add health and ammo stations to every map, each being some degree away from the objectives? It's a very common FPS feature. In this way, Medics and Supports still won't be overly crucial to a team's success in a game and complaints about "lack of realism" and "reduction in teamwork" can be silenced. The only tradeoff is that positioning after disengagement remains somewhat restrictive. Players will now be forced to run to specific areas of the map to re-reach full combat potential, without having to count on the competence of their teammates to reinstate them.

We'd also have to consider how fast these stations can regenerate health, as well as what should happen if engagements around and for these resources occur. Will regeneration cease for all players near the station when suppressed or taking damage? Will it be slowed? Can these stations be destroyed, and how long will it take before they respawn? An interesting topic I'd like to discuss and hear criticism/positive feedback on.

Zer0Cod3x

Can't get a title

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Wednesday, March 29th 2017, 1:01pm

Support is in no way an underplayed class in BF1. The pouches let you mash Q to throw anyone a packet. If people just played the game with some modicum of competence reliable re-supply would be a non-issue.

Having access to a constant supply of ammo is useless for the vast majority of players.


If we do a little maths:

The Model 8.35 spawns with 70 bullets. Assuming that you can kill one person per magazine (not even counting sidearm kills), that's 14 people you need to kill before you start looking for a Support player. Unless you have an infantry KD of 14, you don't need access to a constant supply of ammo. You'll die before you ever run out.

That is the problem DICE is trying to fix with Ammo 2.0. Or rather, would be fixing, if Ammo 2.0 were to apply to primary weapon ammo as well.


@SomeRandomGuy

Essentially, the health and ammo stations turn into capture points of their own. Adding another 5-10 "flags" to CQ is unnecessary IMO, especially when two of your classes are specifically designed to supply you with health and ammo.
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


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Wednesday, March 29th 2017, 1:30pm

Support is in no way an underplayed class in BF1. The pouches let you mash Q to throw anyone a packet. If people just played the game with some modicum of competence reliable re-supply would be a non-issue.

Having access to a constant supply of ammo is useless for the vast majority of players.


If we do a little maths:

The Model 8.35 spawns with 70 bullets. Assuming that you can kill one person per magazine (not even counting sidearm kills), that's 14 people you need to kill before you start looking for a Support player. Unless you have an infantry KD of 14, you don't need access to a constant supply of ammo. You'll die before you ever run out.

That is the problem DICE is trying to fix with Ammo 2.0. Or rather, would be fixing, if Ammo 2.0 were to apply to primary weapon ammo as well.


@SomeRandomGuy

Essentially, the health and ammo stations turn into capture points of their own. Adding another 5-10 "flags" to CQ is unnecessary IMO, especially when two of your classes are specifically designed to supply you with health and ammo.
I frequently run out of ammo using automatico though.

I'm not sure that having more than enough small arms ammo to survive a typical life is a problem even worth fixing.

Support is strong simply deploying it's own gadgets, repairing vehicles, and resupplying other gadgets/grenades.

It's pulling in two directions: making sure players can play their roles without needing to wait for a mage/healer to show, but making sure that mage/healer is super relevant in all things that involve shooting. IOW in everything.

Other than the lack of passive regen on things like flare guns exactly what is so bad about Ammo 1.0?

Legion

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Wednesday, March 29th 2017, 1:40pm

First, it's the Community TEST Enviroment. Testing whether these things work out or not is kinda what it's there for.
Also, how exactly are K-Bullet OP on paper? Even with only 1 shot for the rocket gun, an assault will do almost three times the damage(175 base vs ~65 base against an A7V) and it's not much more difficult to land.
With the current CTE stats, a full rocket gun dump will do 525 damage. Then you add another 175 damage every 8s when supplied or every 30s without. Full K-bullet dump is 260 damage with another 65 every 4 seconds or every 20s without a support. As you probably noted, this is all before angle mods. A bit annoying when driving a tank but if they amass enough K-Bullets to kill me, having the same amount of RGs shot at me would be much more concerning.

Quoted

The problems with the RG aren't solved by a floating ammo pool whose quality is tied to a supply of ammo. Getting sent to the respawn screen to try again works perfectly fine as a mechanic and it ensures that you will face an increasingly easy fight with a full ammo load vs a somewhat damaged tank.

Why should the fight get easier as it goes on? You'll have to explain that one to me as I think it's completely nonsensical. We are not in a singleplayer game where the player might've selected a difficulty that's too high for them. If they are in over their heads, it's matchmaking that needs to be fixed. All you encourage is having people throw bodies at tanks instead of actually learning how to handle them.

Quoted

The entire premise that a mix of support and assault should be better at tank killing than n+1 assaults is flawed concept and should die.

The support class is already hugely and decisively relevant to vehicle combat because they repair friendly vehicles. 1 support repairing 1 tank can let something like a breakthrough solo 2 enemy 1 man tanks - how is that not decisively powerful? It's a hell of lot more powerful than dropping ammo and herpa-derping away.

Support doesn't need to be decisive on both ends of the equation.

Because the only things that Support brought to the game were repairing and sustained, ranged damage. Their infantry support abilities were completely irrelevant in most situations and broken in others, making a redesign necessary. What you think is a change aimed towards fixing grenade spam is actually a change made to make resupply relevant with grenade spam fix as a secondary goal. And that then necessitates that a support is more valuable for a given amount of assaults than another assault is. Because if it is not then why bother with it? You'd lose burst damage and not gain much in return. Now it's a choice between the additional burst damage of an assault against the sustained damage and manpower efficiency of a support.

Quoted

And why the hell should medic be relevant in fighting tanks? They've already got the two most powerful abilities in the game, and the best general purpose weapon.

Because every class should be relevant in every situation. It's not a difficult concept to grasp. Look at medics in BF3/4 and you'll understand.

As for resupply stations and similar, it's bad for balance because suddenly, everything depends more on how often you pass by one of these stations rather than than actively resupplying.
Alternatively, and this is the version I prefer, simply use them as a reskin for the passive effects. Put a couple bandages and some ammo in a small crate every 50ish meters and tell the community that being in a certain radius near those enables slow healing and resupply.
Problem is, people start with too much ammo for resupply to be relevant. If you drop their ammo capacity down, they need some way of regaining it without a support. Supports should be there to enhance fighting abilities of nearby allies, not be there to have a fighting chance.
So, use them as cover for systems already in place.
Bro of Oscar, the gentleman ninja
Rules. Read them, follow them.

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[22:09:20] Failure117: Legion: Tank Expert and Pokemon Afficianado

[16:21:16] Oscar Perez Lijo: In soviet russia legion is top poster

VincentNZ

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Wednesday, March 29th 2017, 1:47pm

Ammo crates would be underused as well, by the time you reached them you would be on full health or close and your ammo would likely not be depleted either. An ammo crate or support is also likely to be in close proximity to you in any case.

While your math is correct regarding possible kills, it greatly depends on weapon and personal accuracy level. The Automatic weapons and shotguns are likely to be depleted faster than a regular SLR. BAs have a rather high potential kill capacity, but I find myself low on ammo a lot, because my accuracy is a fair bit lower.

Players that are not so accurate will always burn through their primary ammo faster than more accurate players. So mingling with primary ammo capacity will always have different effects on players. I still believe that I get more points as a support from resupplying regular ammo than from gadgets.

Gadgets however are indeed more cruicial, namely the assault gadgets, but I do not see the general issue considering the average lifespan of even a good player. Fact is, if you are engaging a tank you are putting your life on the line. A recon player firing away K-bullets and signal flares from 100m away not so much, so they should not have the benefit of passive ammo regen.

The support class is the key. It should be made so that full resupplies are something that can happen passive and active with both ammo gadgets. So you either throw a pouch or crate at them and they continue their journey, or you plant your crate and pouches at a key location for ongoing stationary resupply. So no sitting on an ammo box unless you gain the tactical advantage that way. Would keep both options relevant.
It is still an awkward system, because the pouches are obviously rarely seen lying around, so you can not acitvely seek out one, while the ammo crate does not offer the mobile advantage. One of the two should have been scrapped and the positives should have been applied to surviving gadget.