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## CTE Battlefield Roots Initiative

Hey! If this is your first visit on symthic.com, also check out our weapon damage charts.
Currently we have charts for Battlefield 3, Call of Duty: Black Ops 2, Medal of Honor: Warfighter and Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3

PvF 2017 Champion

Posts: 6,957

Date of registration
: Apr 3rd 2012

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 19

Tuesday, March 28th 2017, 10:23pm

### Quoted from "NoctyrneSAGA"

The Battlefield Community: Killing good ideas since 2015.
tank regens ammo, screw those squishies
But my immersion!

I don't mind soldiers teleporting onto the field, healing bullet wounds by waiting 30 sec, HUDs w/ minimap in WW1, etc, etc., but if my soldier regains ammo without standing 2 meters from a box my immersion is completely broken!

On a more serious note: I'm saddened that DICE gave in to the whiners after only 2 weeks, without even doing some iterations of Ammo 2.0. The system really had potential.

Don't give them any more ideas.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.

Are you a scrub?

### Quoted from "blahdy"

If it flies, it dies™.

Can't get a title

Posts: 1,530

Date of registration
: Dec 23rd 2013

Platform: Xbox One

Location: The Land of Multitudinous Kangaroos

Reputation modifier: 12

Tuesday, March 28th 2017, 10:37pm

"Pressing '3' on my keyboard and standing still for 15 seconds is obviously the height of teamwork in BF"
something something Model 8 bestgun

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:

Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

### Quoted from "Zer0Cod3x"

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

### Quoted from "Veritable"

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.

Posts: 921

Date of registration
: Dec 14th 2014

Platform: PS3

Location: The Heart of Europe

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 6

Tuesday, March 28th 2017, 10:44pm

Wait WHAT ?

Dice paddled back with Ammo 2.0 (this forum needs a facepalm emot)

Y ?

Resupplying RL in BF4 was a pain... Always trying to find another engi kit on the ground to continue.

God dammit, that would have been the solution against the self-repair tanks in BF1.

I knew, I wished BF1 wouldnt have the CTE. Dice should enforce such stuff no matter how.

idgaf about Primary weapon ammo resupply, the gadgets is all I care for.
still playin' Motorstorm

Salt Miner

Posts: 3,429

Date of registration
: Mar 19th 2014

Platform: Xbox One

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 15

Tuesday, March 28th 2017, 11:06pm

Being a good system on paper doesn't necessarily translate to being an appropriate system for a given game. Ammo 2.0 was always a very well-designed and crafted system, but that doesn't mean it was the ideal system for BF1.

Mechanics serve to create a game's Aesthetics, and so no matter how "good" (well-designed/intentioned) a Mechanic is, if it negatively impacts the intended Aesthetics then it's not a good Mechanic. It's as simple as that.
Who has fun, wins.

thank mr skeltal

Posts: 212

Date of registration
: Dec 17th 2016

Platform: PC

Location: Kauai

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 3

Tuesday, March 28th 2017, 11:08pm

This is just depressing, I respect that DICE listens to the whole community and not just competitive/popular players but this was the change the game actually needed, and now it's dead and DICE will probably never revisit it for fear of backlash.
I'm not sure if it's against Reddit rules but I think the Symthic community should brigade Battlefield_Live and instate ourselves as the "popular opinion" while also giving constructive and detailed feedback (like we already do here).
And if DICE doesn't listen to us we can write hate threads about how DICE doesn't care about the community!

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Gecko99" (Mar 28th 2017, 11:13pm)

PvF 2017 Champion

Posts: 6,957

Date of registration
: Apr 3rd 2012

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 19

Tuesday, March 28th 2017, 11:25pm

### Quoted from "BleedingUranium"

Mechanics serve to create a game's Aesthetics, and so no matter how "good" (well-designed/intentioned) a Mechanic is, if it negatively impacts the intended Aesthetics then it's not a good Mechanic. It's as simple as that.

You are also assuming what the Aesthetics are.

DICE has tried very hard to make Battlefield a competitive e-sport for their past 3 releases now.

WWI fantasy is counter to that. Appeal to tradition is counter to that.

Ammo 2.0 is not. It's a mechanic that directly contributes to competitive, interesting, and engaging gameplay.

DICE needs to decide firmly whether they want a competitive game or not. And if they don't, then they can go and make what EC would call a "great video game."
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.

Are you a scrub?

### Quoted from "blahdy"

If it flies, it dies™.

Posts: 1,879

Date of registration
: Jan 12th 2014

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 13

Tuesday, March 28th 2017, 11:42pm

### Quoted from "Gecko99"

This is just depressing, I respect that DICE listens to the whole community and not just competitive/popular players but this was the change the game actually needed, and now it's dead and DICE will probably never revisit it for fear of backlash.
I'm not sure if it's against Reddit rules but I think the Symthic community should brigade Battlefield_Live and instate ourselves as the "popular opinion" while also giving constructive and detailed feedback (like we already do here).
And if DICE doesn't listen to us we can write hate threads about how DICE doesn't care about the community!
The combination of mix/max ammo for gadgets with a global timer and overall damage changes (which favoured k-bullets over RGs in a meta sense), was precisely not what the infantry vs vehicle gameplay needed.

Ammo 2.0 was just terribly thought out from a holistic perspective. They wanted to address a map specific issue by overhauling the entire way gadget ammo works? Whyyyyy?

The game is already mature, stale and problematic. You can't just decided to overhaul a core ruleset starting from a position that isn't even a step up.

I think the principle of ammo regeneration is good. But Ammo 2.0 wasn't, at least not for the vehicle stuff.

At the very least all "core" class stuff should regen: medics get syringe + bandages on a cooldown, support gets ammo stuffs on a cooldown, recon gets flares on a cooldown....assault...eeeeh.

Salt Miner

Posts: 3,429

Date of registration
: Mar 19th 2014

Platform: Xbox One

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 15

Tuesday, March 28th 2017, 11:43pm

### Quoted from "NoctyrneSAGA"

DICE has tried very hard to make Battlefield a competitive e-sport for their past 3 releases now.

Haha. No. I really can't add much to this other than it being an absurd notion. It's also a fantastic way to sink the series, so hopefully they give up on it soon.
Who has fun, wins.

Posts: 1,879

Date of registration
: Jan 12th 2014

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 13

Tuesday, March 28th 2017, 11:50pm

### Quoted from "NoctyrneSAGA"

DICE has tried very hard to make Battlefield a competitive e-sport for their past 3 releases now.

Haha. No. I really can't add much to this other than it being an absurd notion. It's also a fantastic way to sink the series, so hopefully they give up on it soon.
He's right. 2142, BF3, BF4 were all comp-friendly titles. Some game devs are trying to do with e-sports what sporting goods companies (bikes, hockey stuff, etc) do with competitive sports. The translation has just been generally shitty compared to real sports for reasons, often the same reasons why $4000 race bikes don't sell to average joe that is well served by the$200 walmart bike.

With BF1 decided to not have dedicated, independantly hosted and privately controlled servers - ignoring everything else that is completely removing BF1 from anything remotely e-sports. They don't even want you to have large blobs of coordinated players anymore.

Salt Miner

Posts: 3,429

Date of registration
: Mar 19th 2014

Platform: Xbox One

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 15

Tuesday, March 28th 2017, 11:58pm

### Quoted from "tankmayvin"

He's right. 2142, BF3, BF4 were all comp-friendly titles. Some game devs are trying to do with e-sports what sporting goods companies (bikes, hockey stuff, etc) do with competitive sports. The translation has just been generally shitty compared to real sports for reasons, often the same reasons why $4000 race bikes don't sell to average joe that is well served by the$200 walmart bike.

With BF1 decided to not have dedicated, independantly hosted and privately controlled servers - ignoring everything else that is completely removing BF1 from anything remotely e-sports. They don't even want you to have large blobs of coordinated players anymore.

That's fair, and yeah, if they're going for comp/e-sports, they're starting for the complete wrong angle here. BF1 is a fantastic example of how to make normal players feel alienated because the gameplay isn't what they want, while at the same time also alienating competitive communities and organizations (and non-comp too, for that matter) by having precisely zero community-oriented features. Well done.

If they had done the reverse, nearly everyone would be happy instead.
Who has fun, wins.

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