Welcome to symthic forums! We would love if you'd register!
You don't have to be expert in bit baking, everyone is more than welcome to join our community.

You are not logged in.

Hey! If this is your first visit on symthic.com, also check out our weapon damage charts.
Currently we have charts for Battlefield 3, Call of Duty: Black Ops 2, Medal of Honor: Warfighter and Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3

Zer0Cod3x

Can't get a title

(1,327)

Posts: 1,530

Date of registration
: Dec 23rd 2013

Platform: Xbox One

Location: The Land of Multitudinous Kangaroos

Reputation modifier: 12

  • Send private message

191

Saturday, March 18th 2017, 4:07am

I really don't understand how people think that sitting on an ammo box for 12+ seconds is fun.

That's why auto regen exists. So that you can actually do something meaningful whilst resupplying your grenade.
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


Posts: 3,453

Date of registration
: Mar 19th 2014

Platform: Xbox One

Location: Canada

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 15

  • Send private message

192

Saturday, March 18th 2017, 4:10am

On that note, what if Medic/Support players could hold their Health/Ammo boxes instead of just dropping them, and run around with them active?
Who Enjoys, Wins

Posts: 4,259

Date of registration
: Apr 6th 2012

Platform: PC

Location: From the heart of Europe.

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 16

  • Send private message

193

Saturday, March 18th 2017, 9:34am

I really don't understand how people think that sitting on an ammo box for 12+ seconds is fun.

That's why auto regen exists. So that you can actually do something meaningful whilst resupplying your grenade.

mfw people think sitting on ammo 12s while holding a button is fun
[Aristocrat's Shoes]
TLDR -
Teamwork is where players function by themselves, but their effectiveness is multiplied when they work together. Not a checklist of "did we bring a healer so we can start playing?"

Posts: 923

Date of registration
: Dec 14th 2014

Platform: PS3

Location: The Heart of Europe

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 6

  • Send private message

194

Saturday, March 18th 2017, 10:21am

mfw people think battlefield isnt fun anymore and claiming going back to the roots could save it.

Modernisation is the solution, not the nostalgic.
still playin' Motorstorm

Zer0Cod3x

Can't get a title

(1,327)

Posts: 1,530

Date of registration
: Dec 23rd 2013

Platform: Xbox One

Location: The Land of Multitudinous Kangaroos

Reputation modifier: 12

  • Send private message

195

Saturday, March 18th 2017, 12:12pm

mfw people think sitting on ammo 12s while holding a button is fun

but "muh teamplay"
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


VincentNZ

Holy War? No Thanks.

(2,088)

Posts: 2,586

Date of registration
: Jul 25th 2013

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 14

  • Send private message

196

Saturday, March 18th 2017, 4:08pm

You were advocating passive regen two or three years ago already; I think it is a dumb system for the franchise, in my book it is a try to appeal to the MOBA shooter crowd, with reiterations of skills on cooldowns. I also think that self-dependency is a synonym for selfishness in this game.
Still good for you to see your vision come true, though. You were quite adamant about it, too. I do not think this is a visionary feature though, it is just radical for the franchise.
I fail to see the arguments in both statements. Cooldowns existed long before MOBA's were innovated and became popular (ex. World of Warcraft, Avalon: The Legend Lives, Diablo II). Even fighting games have this in the form of recovery frames after executing a move.

How does self-dependency equate to selfishness? Selfishness does not result from being self-sufficient. Self-sufficiency simply means that you are able to sustain yourself without significant assistance from others. Selfishness is a characteristic defined by lack of care for the fellow man and narrow-minded consideration for one's benefit alone. The former does not cause the latter.


I will just quote you, because you make some decent points.

If you are self-dependent, you do not have to rely on others, as if that was ever the case in BF, but teamwork is appreciated and was actively enforced. If I do not have to rely on anyone else to fill my role consequently, why would I care about other players? The only way to make people feel the need of a support guy, is to be in the position to have no amo for the rocket gun left, when you would need it. So that the next time you are playing support you remember. Same goes for revives, and passive regen actively supports other playstyles that I think are abominations, like loadouts with no team value at all. Medic pouch and rifle grenades, or Mortar and Limpet.

Their ammo 2.0 opens up a few other cans of worms. Yesterday I was taking C on Frontlines back, and obviously I was hit middle, left and right by grenades, mortar shells, bullets and so forth. Basically half my team was suppressed while trying to PTFO. Luckily we could chuck grenades back as well, but if suppression starts to halt that thing or delay it, we would be taking the same amount of grenades while not being able to return the favour.
Also in the thick of battle and how the game plays out with that many exlposions, bullets whiffing past etc. I find it hard to locate ammo already, that is why I applaud the ammo pouch. God knows why they left the crate in at all. With the focus on the crate now to resupply your gadgets faster and increasing the threshold, you will still be sitting on ammo boxes. So optimally nothing really changed, why bother?

By the way I am not being salty at all, I do not even really know what that means, but I am objective at all times, it is kind of an illness. I always look at issues from both sides, that is why my posts tend to be so long. This is how I formed my opinion and this is why I am always critcal, otherwise I would just applaud everything that changed, because there are always good and bad sides with any change. And it is still just a valid opinion, nobody really cares, what anyone thinks of this game, so no need to condemn other people's POV.

Edit:
@JSLICE

Something more personal to add. Your opinion back there was not stupid, it was only deemed stupid by others, since symthic generally is not a very gentle place. So, even if you changed your opinion, remember how you felt after the whole discussion. I mean you were not seen again until a while later.

Posts: 274

Date of registration
: Dec 2nd 2013

Platform: PC

Location: Nepped On

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 9

  • Send private message

197

Saturday, March 18th 2017, 6:14pm

I'm actually for some of this new Ammo 2.0 system, but I also see a lot of potential problems that would make the game even worse

tankmayvin already highlighted what would happen if a solo Assault expended all his AT gadgets without destroying a tank. You are supposed to actively encourage Assaults to attack tanks, not make things continuously more difficult for them as they respawn and get killed while doing their job. And suppression hindering ammo/gadget resupply, as VincentNZ pointed out as well

DICE desperately needs to address these two issues before they implement Ammo 2.0 into Live, not 2-3 months after and say, "Well the certification process was already done so here it is!"

Overall though, while I think some of it has nice ideas, it's also entirely unnecessary. If they are going to bring it in with all its flaws it has now, I'd rather just not have it at all.


On that note, what if Medic/Support players could hold their Health/Ammo boxes instead of just dropping them, and run around with them active?


There was already this system in Hardline, where you could walk up to a Medic/Support and press E to pick up a pouch from them. Just like BF4's quality of life and general gameplay improvements, it was simply forgotten and not carried over to BF1

NoctyrneSAGA

PvF 2017 Champion

(9,645)

  • "NoctyrneSAGA" started this thread

Posts: 6,983

Date of registration
: Apr 3rd 2012

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 19

  • Send private message

198

Saturday, March 18th 2017, 6:41pm

Apparently, Battlefield 1 does not require good positioning or good aim.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

Posts: 274

Date of registration
: Dec 2nd 2013

Platform: PC

Location: Nepped On

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 9

  • Send private message

199

Saturday, March 18th 2017, 7:24pm

On the contrary, it requires much more good positioning and aim from all classes. Especially if you're AT, and arbitrarily so, compared to previous titles

Those two qualities are pretty scarce when you're forced to squat on the objective while being hammered by vehicles, grenades, mortars, and machinegun/sniper fire

Posts: 104

Date of registration
: Oct 28th 2016

Platform: PS4

Location: California

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 3

  • Send private message

200

Saturday, March 18th 2017, 8:49pm

I will just quote you, because you make some decent points.

If you are self-dependent, you do not have to rely on others, as if that was ever the case in BF, but teamwork is appreciated and was actively enforced. If I do not have to rely on anyone else to fill my role consequently, why would I care about other players? The only way to make people feel the need of a support guy, is to be in the position to have no amo for the rocket gun left, when you would need it. So that the next time you are playing support you remember. Same goes for revives, and passive regen actively supports other playstyles that I think are abominations, like loadouts with no team value at all. Medic pouch and rifle grenades, or Mortar and Limpet.

Their ammo 2.0 opens up a few other cans of worms. Yesterday I was taking C on Frontlines back, and obviously I was hit middle, left and right by grenades, mortar shells, bullets and so forth. Basically half my team was suppressed while trying to PTFO. Luckily we could chuck grenades back as well, but if suppression starts to halt that thing or delay it, we would be taking the same amount of grenades while not being able to return the favour.
Also in the thick of battle and how the game plays out with that many exlposions, bullets whiffing past etc. I find it hard to locate ammo already, that is why I applaud the ammo pouch. God knows why they left the crate in at all. With the focus on the crate now to resupply your gadgets faster and increasing the threshold, you will still be sitting on ammo boxes. So optimally nothing really changed, why bother?
To answer your question, "Why should I care about my teammates?", the answer is because if your teammates are also self-sufficient, then you can multiply your effectiveness together by executing the best possible plays to win. With the more flexible direction that Battlefield's gameplay and teamplay is going, players have greater options in what they can accomplish in a single life and what they can accomplish alongside other teammates. Passive regeneration opens up a huge degree of positioning opportunities that aren't possible without it.

The variety in loadouts is supposed to add to the greater flexibility in effective team roles that BF1 is trying to offer. A Medic with a pouch and rifle grenades offers quick, on-the-move healing for himself and his teammates combined with an additional source of vehicle damage and position-clearing explosives. A Support with Mortars and Limpets is either specializing in pure vehicle destruction or is combining a position-clearing device with close-range vehicle-destroying capabilities. (Although, I do agree that Mortars and Limpets together is kinda stupid in BF1's current iteration. Ammo is important in ensuring that you and your teammates can effectively neutralize targets with little downtime. Picking this loadout means you must ironically rely on other supports to maintain your combat potential. If you want to pick a class designated specifically for destroying vehicles, you should just pick Assault's gadgets, unless you truly want the cover-ignoring attribute of the mortar and spike damage of the limpet.)

Regarding Ammo 2.0, you cannot forget that your opponents will generally chuck grenades at the same rate as your team with the new system in place. If your team is also suppressing the enemy, both teams will end up throwing grenades at about the same slow rate. No advantages are lost or gained here. What we end up with is a stalemate of indirect crossfire until a few players on either side are smart enough to flank even farther for an eventual opening.
With how hard it is to find Supports competently dropping Ammo in BF1, there's a reason why ammo regeneration and cooldowns are the next CTE prerogative. Ammo pouches are no easier to find than ammo crates. One offers instantaneous resupply to a single teammate, the other offers fast resupply to multiple players. Ammo 2.0 already aims to reduce the amount of time spent sitting on crates for greater player flexibility. One does not need to sit on a crate for an arbitrarily long period to regenerate rockets or increase the maximum number of rockets they carry.