CTE Battlefield Roots Initiative

NoctyrneSAGA

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Thursday, March 2nd 2017, 1:18am

INTRODUCING THE BATTLEFIELD ROOTS INITIATIVE

Hi!

Today we are kicking off what we've chosen to call the Battlefield Roots Initiative (BRI)! Within this project we are going to target areas important to experienced players and veterans of Battlefield.

We will discuss issues, improve features and reach conclusions. We will disagree, and we will have fierce discussions - but we feel it's high time we start to focus on this now!

In the near future we will be expanding on this through direct communication, so if you know of a great representative you think we should be talking to - let us know!

TEAMPLAY FIRST

We will start looking at our teamplay gameplay and loops - we feel there are several places where we can do a better job here, and we will probably need to experiment and do some pretty controversial changes to accommodate this going forward. The goal here is to take what we have, fix obvious issues - and improve the teamplay aspects, including depth, communication and teaching players how it works.

AMMO TEAMPLAY & BALANCE

With They Shall Not Pass (XP1) We knew we had several maps with heavy chokepoints (Like Fort De Vaux) - which creates some really tense and hectic gameplay - but also comes with its slew of problems.

Challenge 1: Explosive spam

In the retail game we currently have a problem with grenades and how much they affect general gameplay (it's to put it in player words - spammy). We needed to fix this for the XP1 release, but the time was short in supply, so we had to split the solution up in pieces.

Long Term Goals

Our long-term plan is to improve the utility of ammo crates and pouches. We want ammo gadgets to matter for all players in all situations, as soon as they spawn in.

We think the current system does not achieve this, as ammo usually only comes into play when you spam gadgets or survive long enough. We also want to address the gadget spam and frustration stemming from the current way resupplies are handled.

For the near future, we are looking into tweaking the passive regeneration times of some grenades vs average player lifetime, which might currently be on the short end, and the effect of smoke grenades.

What have we done now?

Changed resupply mechanic for grenades from hard reliance on ammo to cooldown-based with significant acceleration from ammo crates
Temporarily disabled Ammo Pouches resupplying grenades
Reduced all grenade ammo to 1
Small tweaks to Mini, Impact, Incendiary and Light AT grenades

Why did we do the resupply tweaks?

Limit the amount of grenades players get when constantly resupplied by support players, without having to resort to very long and bad timers like in BF4 (Illustration: BFFs - Grenade Resupply (Season 5E12) - YouTube).
Prevent support players from resupplying themselves quickly to spam grenades. A single support player could easily block a choke point indefinitely with incendiary grenades. Spam like this is no longer possible.
Better balance between grenades: We no longer have to spawn players with multiple grenades because the single hit/burst damage is weaker. This gives us much more granularity for balance. The most notable example here are gas grenades, which come with one grenade only now and have less availability than smoke grenade (previously, availability was exactly the same).
Staying alive should not be inferior to dying a lot when it comes to ammo availability.

What are our current findings?

The duration it takes for grenades to be actively resupplied seems to be in a good state. We do not expect bigger changes in general to be necessary here.
The duration it takes for smoke grenades to regenerate on their own seems fine. You get close to 100% uptime and more grenades per life than previously even if you are unlucky about finding ammo. As grenades that cannot deal damage, smokes should have high availability.
The amount of grenade kills per time for Soissons and Rupture is comparable to similar maps of the base game. The amount of grenade kills per time for Fort de Vaux is high, but there are no comparable maps in the base game.

What is up next for testing?

Gather more data on grenade kills per time and average infantry player lifetime.
Balance the passive resupply times based on the collected data. Players should not get too many grenades passively during the average lifetime. Some passive resupply times are likely to go up a little.
Look into making the cooldown mechanic more elaborate to reduce grenade availability on Fort de Vaux specifically.
Improve smoke grenades. You should not require two at a time for them to be viable. Test expanding the visual effect and improve system for distribution.

What are testing plans beyond that?

Make sure team mates cannot spot targets for you if your line of sight is occluded by smoke. This makes the effect of smoke on spotting inconsistent.
Create a proper gas AOE system. While we currently could prevent gas from damaging through walls, it would also get blocked by rocks and small pillars, making it very inconsistent. There is no way for gas to creep around objects as expected.
We want to take care of gadget spam. Expect ammo count adjustments and a few damage increases where it makes sense.
The overall system of resupplies is currently not working as intended. The best squad composition to fight a tank is to bring 5 assault players. 3 assault players combined with a medic and support should beat that, but usually it does not. We want ammo gadgets to matter for all players, no matter how long you stay alive. Ammo should be relevant the moment you spawn in. Medic players are rarely affected by ammo unless they run rifle grenades. However, a support player can currently allow a medic to fire 12 rifle grenades in a row with almost no delay. This should not be possible.
Tweak the balance between Ammo Crates and Ammo Pouches. In general, pouches are better and allow for more abuse currently.
We want to improve the clarity of being resupplied. The game should let you know what is being resupplied and how much longer it will take.
We also want to improve clarity to support player regarding which players are the lowest on ammo, so they can prioritize accordingly.
Additionally, we want to reduce the impact of support and medic players not paying attention to their team mates.
And many, many more things - but let's focus on one area at a time!

Reference values & Context

Source code

Type       |  Old resupply time | New resupply time (active) | New resupply time (passive)
Grenade    | 6s / 1 grenade     | 12s / 1 grenade            | 36s / 1 grenade 
Frag/Stick | 6s / 1 grenade     | 12s / 1 grenade            | 36s / 1 grenade 
Light AT   | 6s / 1 grenade     | 12s / 1 grenade            | 36s / 1 grenade 
Incendiary | 6s / 1 grenade     | 12s / 1 grenade            | 36s / 1 grenade 
Impact     | 6s / 1 grenade     | 12s / 1 grenade            | 36s / 1 grenade 
Gas        | 8s / 2 grenades    | 9s / 1 grenade             | 27s / 1 grenade 
Mini       | 8s / 2 grenades    | 8s / 1 grenade             | 24s / 1 grenade 
Smoke      | 8s / 2 grenades    | 6s / 1 grenade             | 18s / 1 grenade

Some numbers for comparison:

Respawn time in Conquest: 15 s
Health regeneration duration: 10 s delay, 20 s to restore 100 health
Medical Crate/Bandage Pouch healing duration: 8 seconds to restore 100 health

DISCUSSION & FEEDBACK

That concludes our first, and pretty meaty update! Once XP1 testing is over on the CTE we will start testing more of these features (and others we'll talk about later)!

If you have a great idea, an area you've been irritated about and have constructive ideas or criticism about - please let us know in this thread!

David "t1gge" Sirland, Lars "IlCarpentero" Gustavsson

Source

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Quoted from "blahdy"

If it flies, it diesÂ.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "NoctyrneSAGA" (Mar 2nd 2017, 1:27am)

Oscar

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Thursday, March 2nd 2017, 1:35am

"The best squad composition to fight a tank is to bring 5 assault players. 3 assault players combined with a medic and support should beat that, but usually it does not."

Of course. If your only goal is to fight a tank, why wouldn't you choose the composition with the most damage output?
Having Medics and Supports in the mix is fine for overall play where you won't exclusively targeting armour, but if you're just looking to kill a tank, 5 rocket guns/at nades/etc are better than 3

Bro of Legion, the lurker ninja mod | Tesla FTW | RNG is evil.

Quoted from "MsMuchLove"

I find majority of the complaints I hear about this game somehow never appear in my games.

NoctyrneSAGA

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Thursday, March 2nd 2017, 1:39am

Quoted from "Oscar"

Of course. If your only goal is to fight a tank, why wouldn't you choose the composition with the most damage output?

What if adding a Support was better than stacking Assaults?

Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

"Skill" may indeed be the most magical of words. Chant it well enough and any desire can be yours.

Are you a scrub?

Quoted from "blahdy"

If it flies, it diesÂ.

JSLICE20

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Thursday, March 2nd 2017, 1:46am

Quoted

Create a proper gas AOE system. While we currently could prevent gas from damaging through walls, it would also get blocked by rocks and small pillars, making it very inconsistent. There is no way for gas to creep around objects as expected.

Aha! So they are working on this. I'm just glad to see feedback about it.

Quoted

We want to take care of gadget spam. Expect ammo count adjustments and a few damage increases where it makes sense.

Here's looking at you, Dynamite and Rocket Gun with your pitiful damage against vehicles. Maybe Medics will only get 2 Rifle Grenades now.

Quoted

We want to improve the clarity of being resupplied. The game should let you know what is being resupplied and how much longer it will take.

So possibly a circular doodad that fills up clockwise to show the duration and an icon in the center showing what item is resupplied? I'm game.

Quoted

We also want to improve clarity to support player regarding which players are the lowest on ammo, so they can prioritize accordingly.

Visual feedback is always a step in the right direction.

To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

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Prepare your laughbox

Quoted from "Zer0Cod3x"

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho

My "Contributions"

Gun Sway Modifiers (Hidden Attachments in Variants)
Gadget, Stationary, and Vehicle Weaponry Stats (Pre-Official)

Oscar

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Thursday, March 2nd 2017, 1:48am

Quoted from "NoctyrneSAGA"

Quoted from "Oscar"

Of course. If your only goal is to fight a tank, why wouldn't you choose the composition with the most damage output?

What if adding a Support was better than stacking Assaults?

It's very likely, but I think both are valid choices. As I see it, the intention is to shift the most desirable anti tank composition from 5x Assault to one that mixes other classes in. That's perfectly fine but I think that it shouldn't be done in a way that makes 5 assault a non-choice.

Throwing a support player into the mix has its merits, indirect fire with HE Mortar for added damage, airburst to stop repairs, player's own grenades, Xbow or even Limpet not to mention ammo.

Maybe I worded my post poorly. My main concern (even though unfounded because dice have had their balancing quite on point) is that they /want/ mixed comp to be "superior" to a pure damage 5x assault comp. (when it potentially already is)

Bro of Legion, the lurker ninja mod | Tesla FTW | RNG is evil.

Quoted from "MsMuchLove"

I find majority of the complaints I hear about this game somehow never appear in my games.

NoctyrneSAGA

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Thursday, March 2nd 2017, 1:51am

@Oscar

I think the whole point is that they want to introduce a way for Support to contribute more.

Instead of adding a little bit of its own damage, it can instead boost the damage of others by increasing resupply speed.

Based on the tripled speed for grenades, a single Ammo Box would turn those 3 Assaults into wielding the DPS of 9.

Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

"Skill" may indeed be the most magical of words. Chant it well enough and any desire can be yours.

Are you a scrub?

Quoted from "blahdy"

If it flies, it diesÂ.

JSLICE20

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Thursday, March 2nd 2017, 1:59am

Realistically speaking, a minimum of 3 coordinated Assaults is all you need for anti-tank purposes. Each Anti-Tank Grenade deals 20 damage. 3 Assaults with 2 grenades each = 120 possible damage to a singular tank. Instantly dead, Rocket Guns aren't even necessary. Another tank rolls along, but oh no no more AT grenades! And that's where your Support is valuable, plus he may have Limpets equipped. Additionally, the squad Medic can heal and revive when necessary. 5 Assaults have more initial AT prowess, but once expended they are left to find ammo, health or revives from a teammate. So for efficiency's sake, why not have a Support for immediate ammo purposes and a Medic to heal and revive on the spot?

To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

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Prepare your laughbox

Quoted from "Zer0Cod3x"

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho

My "Contributions"

Gun Sway Modifiers (Hidden Attachments in Variants)
Gadget, Stationary, and Vehicle Weaponry Stats (Pre-Official)

sid_tai

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Thursday, March 2nd 2017, 4:42am

Personally I think auto-resupply shouldÂ only be implemented ifÂ playersÂ haveÂ MAX ONEÂ explosive of each type, be it rocket gun, AT nades, lightÂ AT nades, (except AT mines, but that has a limit on how many you can have on the map at the same time, so its a different beast) AND resupply timer is stoppedÂ while death (in the respawn screen). This is the only conditionÂ where I can justifyÂ such a short resupply time compared to BF4. If an assault wants full on AT prowness, he can go light AT nade, AT nade and rocketÂ gun.

Atum675

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Thursday, March 2nd 2017, 5:10am

Quoted from "sid_tai"

Personally I think auto-resupply should only be implemented if players have MAX ONE explosive of each type, be it rocket gun, AT nades, light AT nades, (except AT mines, but that has a limit on how many you can have on the map at the same time, so its a different beast) AND resupply timer is stopped while death (in the respawn screen). This is the only condition where I can justify such a short resupply time compared to BF4. If an assault wants full on AT prowness, he can go light AT nade, AT nade and rocket gun.

To pull that off though AT grenades and the rocket gun would have to do meaningful damage per throw/shot to compensate for only having one, and how do you balance that without making tanks themselves feel either useless or as a backline role.

Atum675 - BF3 Stats

tankmayvin

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Thursday, March 2nd 2017, 5:48am

I think their entire approach is bass ackwards.

They keep repeating over and over again that they need a complex system, and now even a more complex system to balance out AEO weapon supply such that makes for even and satisfying play on open maps and heavily choked maps. They keep going on how they need exceptional balancing to make heavily choked maps and it gets worse the more choked the map gets.

Well no shit, that's because heavily choked off maps concentrate everything together and bash two teams together at a tiny point. They are thus fundamentally incompatible with a game where a player firepower is mostly decoupled from any particular.

The problem isn't the resupply. It's bad map designed that is being hammered into a game that is otherwise centered about maneuver warfare. If things are spamming you can go around. That is the essence of Battlefield - maneuver counters static defense.

If you remove that paradigm you break a big chunk of what battlefield is in terms of game. IOW it is the CORE, most fundamental of combat mechanics. It is one of the things that makes battlefield unique as a shooter in addition to the combined arms, which really just improves that core maneuver vs firepower mechanic.

now lets talk about this:

Quoted

The overall system of resupplies is currently not working as intended.
The best squad composition to fight a tank is to bring 5 assault
players. 3 assault players combined with a medic and support should beat
that, but usually it does not. We want ammo gadgets to matter for all
players, no matter how long you stay alive. Ammo should be relevant the
moment you spawn in. Medic players are rarely affected by ammo unless
they run rifle grenades. However, a support player can currently allow a
medic to fire 12 rifle grenades in a row with almost no delay. This
should not be possible.

At a fundamental level whoever wrote this does not understand how the tanks in their game work. Tanks die by getting overwhelmed by firepower they cannot kill fast enough, escape from, or repair through. That is to say that you want to pile on the most firepower you can and out maneuver the tank to get better angles, avoid getting killed so you can keep up damage, and so you can cut off it's retreat.

A good tanker kites grenades, which means its a rocket gun based fight, at least to soften it up. A good tanker can "counter fire" any given rocket gun guy so you're often looking at only getting off one shot before death unless there is a ton of simultaneous rocket gun fire coming in. 4 guys firing at once can typically two salvo a tank with only 50% casualties.

The bottleneck of the rocket gun is proning, aiming and then reloading. No amount of ammo resupply speeds that up, and N+1 assaults will quite simply out DPS the tank before more assaults get killed. 3 assaults fire a salvo. One dies. It is unlikely the two can kill the tank with the next salvo. Another guy dies. It's then possible you see a wipe without killing the tank.

4-5 assaults can wipe a tank in a single salvo. Unless support buffs damage output or effective fire rate, I don't see how you can break that equation. IMO support buffing is lame to introduce in BF.