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21

Thursday, April 26th 2018, 10:29pm

@NoctyrneSAGA

Definitely, it is strange how many of the Bf youtubers are not more interested in game design or even just what applies to Battlefield. This game series is a huge part of their life, but they don't seem that interested. Like, how are they not reading symthic? (atleast previously)


On topic, all the glint changes are great!


Same reason politicians are not all that interested in deeply learning about the topics they are legislating: it's not actually necessary when pandering to the masses. So why bother?

They want money/prestige/power, those are the huge parts of their life. BF Youtube videos are just a vehicle for that. Better to drive a Ferrari to work than a rusty old Lada right?

As an example: calling BF casual became popular and fashionable so that's basically all they do. I still have no idea what that even means in the context, or what a non-casual BF title looks like. Nobody bothered to sit down and really define these things, they just resorted to memes.


Yes, the community is very much meme-driven. Just look at all the meme guns and the really terrible "quit/teamswitch if you are losing" meme.

I imagine in their heads, accessibility and low barriers to entry = casual.

Therefore a game that has a high barrier to entry is good. Just like sniping in previous Battlefields. A kool kids' klub if you will.



My greatest fear will be a switch from rational designs to meme-driven design.

Symthic Game Science might just die out and be replaced with Le Reddit Memes.



There is no such thing as rational design. A game delivers an experience, which is inherently an abstract concept. How do you define rational, because taken in the psychological sense, understanding the memes of the community is essential to proper game designs, given that memes shape the expectation of the player which in turn shapes the experience. You cannot get away from the effects that community memes will have on the design of the game, or how the designer approaches said design. If memes are disregarded or improperly subverted it will result in a feeling of disconnect between the player and the game. To put it most concisely; if one was to put the AKM in a game, no matter how you balance it, if you don't balance it as the "heavy hitter", people will most likely call the AKM bad and unsatisfying. Simply because the power of the AKM is a meme, and disregarding the meme will simply guarantee that it will not meet anyones expectations, even if the game deliberately tries to create alternate expectations.

Once again, is this you implying that psychology shouldn't be considered and that mathematics should be considered the end-all of game design? Because that is slightly asinine.


Also, and I am saying as someone who has been diagnosed; stop being so bloody autistic, abstract concepts are a thing and simply because you cannot accurately define or approach a certain concept doesn't mean it isn't a valid concept nor does it means it is a meme that can be disregarded as nothign but the product of inferior minds. The concept of a casual game is an abstract; it can be recognized, but never defined. That is why nobody ever sat down and defined it, because you can at best come up with something that approaches it but never with something that accurately describes it.

  • "BleedingUranium" started this thread

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Thursday, April 26th 2018, 11:25pm

I got an answer from Chad/RandomDeviation: The Liu bolt action mode simply reuses the M.95's cycle animation, so it has the same 66rpm.
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NoctyrneSAGA

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23

Friday, April 27th 2018, 1:21am

@colers

How can design not be rational? If there is a need for an anti-air weapon, then the rational designer will create one such that it is capable of fulfilling that role. See the difference between the BF4 MAA pre and post-CTE buffs.

The final state of the MAA is clearly a more rational, or sensible if you prefer, design than what it was before even if the pilots ultimately did not like it.



As for your point about the AKM, it'd absolutely be fine to balance it as a heavy-hitter. No one is saying it can't be. Memes surrounding it don't add or detract from that idea if that's how the weapon actually functioned.

The point I'm making is that a meme or player psychology problem should be handled on that front. More on this later.

For example, the Model 10-A meme is going strong even though it is a pretty meh choice at this point. For 2m extra OHK distance, you lose a lot of fire rate compared to the M97. Any further nerfs would pretty much make it a straight downgrade as a weapon. Should the community meme be a reason to follow through with another nerf? I would still have to say no because then that means your design is actually bad instead of it resembling bad. There is no way in hell the rational gamer would pick the M-10A unless there was some benefit to it over other alternatives.

Going back to my original point about the "casual" meme, does this mean the game should be made super hardcore simply to kill a meme? Hell no. What the game loses in accessibility cannot possibly be equal to whatever DICE gets out of placating people who think the game is too easy. Even if the game is perceived as "casual" that doesn't mean A) it actually is and B) it is bad thing.



If the player psychology is spawning terrible memes, then the solution is to alter the psychology and not the actual gameplay. A good example would be when HALO simply juiced up all the VFX/SFX of a perceived "peashooter" without touching any of the stats. Feedback instantly became "god gun" overnight. The recent change in shotgun rarity for Fortnite is another good example. No statistical changes were made. All that happened was a color change in the UI and suddenly the overused and underused shotguns swapped popularity. This is how you fix perception issues without compromising on the gameplay.

The greatest case against meme-driven design would be the Scout. Scout is simultaneously "useless" and "OP" in BF1. If we were to balance Scout around memes, it would probably not be able to go up hills, it would probably be handed non-sweetspot infantry rifles, and it would probably not be able to leave a flag capture zone. It might not even be able to deal damage except on a headshot. Is this a good design? According to the memes, it would be a solid design for the kit and received as a "challenging, fun PTFO kit" - yet the design is so heavy-handed that it is silly.

Then we also have to consider the fact that players can want something but not know how to articulate that. There can be a difference between what they think they want, what they say they want, and what they actually want but don't realize they do.

Meme-driven design is the same thing as the democratic approach to game design in my eyes. We should not base things on popularity but on merit, not on passion but on reason. We should not compromise on a rational design due to irrational desires. There are ways to handle irrational players without impacting everyone else.
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With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


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24

Friday, April 27th 2018, 2:06am

@NoctyrneSAGA

Definitely, it is strange how many of the Bf youtubers are not more interested in game design or even just what applies to Battlefield. This game series is a huge part of their life, but they don't seem that interested. Like, how are they not reading symthic? (atleast previously)


On topic, all the glint changes are great!


Same reason politicians are not all that interested in deeply learning about the topics they are legislating: it's not actually necessary when pandering to the masses. So why bother?

They want money/prestige/power, those are the huge parts of their life. BF Youtube videos are just a vehicle for that. Better to drive a Ferrari to work than a rusty old Lada right?

As an example: calling BF casual became popular and fashionable so that's basically all they do. I still have no idea what that even means in the context, or what a non-casual BF title looks like. Nobody bothered to sit down and really define these things, they just resorted to memes.


Yes, the community is very much meme-driven. Just look at all the meme guns and the really terrible "quit/teamswitch if you are losing" meme.

I imagine in their heads, accessibility and low barriers to entry = casual.

Therefore a game that has a high barrier to entry is good. Just like sniping in previous Battlefields. A kool kids' klub if you will.



My greatest fear will be a switch from rational designs to meme-driven design.

Symthic Game Science might just die out and be replaced with Le Reddit Memes.



There is no such thing as rational design. A game delivers an experience, which is inherently an abstract concept. How do you define rational, because taken in the psychological sense, understanding the memes of the community is essential to proper game designs, given that memes shape the expectation of the player which in turn shapes the experience. You cannot get away from the effects that community memes will have on the design of the game, or how the designer approaches said design. If memes are disregarded or improperly subverted it will result in a feeling of disconnect between the player and the game. To put it most concisely; if one was to put the AKM in a game, no matter how you balance it, if you don't balance it as the "heavy hitter", people will most likely call the AKM bad and unsatisfying. Simply because the power of the AKM is a meme, and disregarding the meme will simply guarantee that it will not meet anyones expectations, even if the game deliberately tries to create alternate expectations.

Once again, is this you implying that psychology shouldn't be considered and that mathematics should be considered the end-all of game design? Because that is slightly asinine.


Also, and I am saying as someone who has been diagnosed; stop being so bloody autistic, abstract concepts are a thing and simply because you cannot accurately define or approach a certain concept doesn't mean it isn't a valid concept nor does it means it is a meme that can be disregarded as nothign but the product of inferior minds. The concept of a casual game is an abstract; it can be recognized, but never defined. That is why nobody ever sat down and defined it, because you can at best come up with something that approaches it but never with something that accurately describes it.


Blizzard's SC2 team would like to have a word with you out back about such heresy.

Balancing a lot of modern video games is hard because it is a large parameter design space, and some easy balancing methods (ie rock, paper scissors) aren't very interesting from the perspective of making a good/fun game.

That doesn't mean that design isn't rational.

In fact: irrational designing is an oxymoron of sorts. An "irrational" design is really just a bad design.

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Friday, April 27th 2018, 12:21pm

Quite. However, my point it, memes will and for that matter should always shape design choices (Even though they should never drive them; as Noctyrne underlined; design by comitee is the purest form of cancer because it implies the average gamer actually knows what they want). You cannot get away from the influence of memes however, and should always take them into account.

The simple reason of this is that empathy stands core to all game design. It is the driving force of game design. Mathmatics is a fine-tuning tool, however, without the application of empathy there is no way to make a feature connect to the player.

And to what someone else said; yes, sometimes to maintain the balance between the meme-based expectation and the mathmatical balance, visual feedback can be altered instead to meet the meme. After all, all game design exists in composition, not in vacuum. Animations and effects actively influence how we experience a weapon, which is underlined by how everyone started to complain about the accuracy of weaponry being too high after the visual recoil change. There is a difference between the effectiveness and the percieved effectiveness of a weapon, even to those aware of the stats. And sometimes, the gap between the effectiveness and percieved effectiveness can indeed by altered without actual altering the stats of the weapon. naturally, this only goes so far.

I won't ever argue against mathmatical balance, I simply reject the notion that player expectation is something that can be ignored entirely in favor of it. But at the end of the day, good game design is experienced before its understood. You can balance things as well as mathmatically possible, if the end result will be a weapon line up that fails to meet anyones expectations nor allows the players to clearly define the purpose of the weapon (creating a meme) through its usage, the game design simply falls flat because it fails in the central thing it is intended to do; craft a satisfying experience.

  • "BleedingUranium" started this thread

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Friday, April 27th 2018, 8:18pm

But at the end of the day, good game design is experienced before its understood.


That was a fantastic post, but I especially like this part.
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Saturday, April 28th 2018, 11:43am

I got an answer from Chad/RandomDeviation: The Liu bolt action mode simply reuses the M.95's cycle animation, so it has the same 66rpm.


So, I remember hearing (possibly from you on reddit) that the General Liu bolt action damage model is going to be the same as the G98 BA variants with a 80-120 meter sweetspot. But, having M.95 ROF (66 compared to G98's ROF of 50) and still having a sweetspot is going to be really nice. Also, General Liu's has bullet has 800 m/s velocity (I don't know if that'll change in bolt action mode) but that'll be significantly faster than M.95's muzzle velocity.

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Saturday, April 28th 2018, 11:51am

https://twitter.com/Tn_Collision/status/990089174480023552

It looks like the Thompson Annihilator (trench) is on the CTE. Listed with 830 ROF and 20 round magazine

weapon stats

These are the weapon stats the a reddit used found via datamining: (confirming the ROF, but the magazine size was wrong).

Base Spread = 0.4
Spread increase per shot = 0.045
Spread Decrease per shot = 2.7
Magazine size = 25
Reload = 2.9s
Empty reload = 3.4s
UP Recoil = 0.55
Horizontal Recoil = 0.45/0.45
First shot recoil = 3x
Rate of Fire = 830

From the video of the annihilator it seems like the recoil is pretty manageable, so those recoil number may be off.

VincentNZ

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Sunday, April 29th 2018, 9:19pm

But at the end of the day, good game design is experienced before its understood.


That was a fantastic post, but I especially like this part.


Best sentence ever written on symthic I daresay and something, devs, players and peeps here should think about at all times.

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Monday, April 30th 2018, 7:59am

But at the end of the day, good game design is experienced before its understood.


That was a fantastic post, but I especially like this part.


Best sentence ever written on symthic I daresay and something, devs, players and peeps here should think about at all times.


Except that it is actually pretty rubbish, because it's just a platitude that doesn't really mean anything.

Obviously you need to experience something in order to understand it. Horses also come before the cart they are pulling, and water is wet.

A game with a high production value that delivers a cinematic experience, with a good story, etc can deliver a highly entertaining experience without really doing anything in terms of gameplay.

Badly balanced games, and especially with games that just don't do very much in terms of gameplay simply do not have enduring appeal. A great example from a title I just finished is Deserts of Kharak. Nicely put together game, great aethetics and production value. Entertaining for a while but it had such unimaginative gameplay and such a short campaign that there just isn't anything wortwhile after a few hours.

Some of the best games involve ridiculous space alien creatures and all sorts of stuff for which there is no intuitive idea of how they should behave, and yet these games have enduring mass appeal. SC2, Warcraft, Command an Conquer. Overwatch (fat dude has more HP than someone in super fancy power armor). The list is massive.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "tankmayvin" (Apr 30th 2018, 8:04am)