Welcome to symthic forums! We would love if you'd register!
You don't have to be expert in bit baking, everyone is more than welcome to join our community.

You are not logged in.

Hey! If this is your first visit on symthic.com, also check out our weapon damage charts.
Currently we have charts for Battlefield 3, Call of Duty: Black Ops 2, Medal of Honor: Warfighter and Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3

Posts: 2,015

Date of registration
: Jan 12th 2014

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 14

  • Send private message

51

Tuesday, May 1st 2018, 7:56am


Just look at repstacks in previous Battlefields. Mind-numbingly simple to do, incredibly effective, and just sad that it exists. Rep monkeys don't need any further involvement in the gameplay loop aside from holding LMB and staring at a friendly tank for the entire game.


Rep stacks were a lot more than just holding mouse button near tank in BF3 and BF4 with the potency of the gunner weapon and various gunner perks. It was not uncommon for my gunner to get nearly as many kills and a simlar score as me in BF4.

BF1 vehicle teamwork is just trash. I'm hoping that with hull/cupola MGs things will be decent in BF2018.

Ammo actually works alright if most people on a team are playing semi-competently and support class is worth using for anything beyond being ammo bitch. Historically support has either been terrible, and/or players are woefully incompetent.

The fact that balancing support as a viable class is really hit or miss, and no matter what they do they can't get people to deploy their free points gadgets even after like 10+ years of trying really says something though.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "tankmayvin" (May 1st 2018, 8:01am)


VincentNZ

Holy War? No Thanks.

(2,416)

Posts: 2,810

Date of registration
: Jul 25th 2013

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 16

  • Send private message

52

Tuesday, May 1st 2018, 12:48pm

Yeah we had the discussion before and I would agree that it can be frustrating, but I would also conclude that it is a different view on Online Games, or the BF series in particular. Generally I would really say that it is not an issue for most players, since you die before you run out of ammo, if you do, you will very likely have a body near you to pick up a kit and start from there. Redeploying is an option as well. Or to go out your way and look for a crate or support player. From a personal view I never had problems, even on longer killstreaks and playing with all gadgets I was rarely out on anything.

In BF1 in particular I would say that, if fewer ammoboxes are indeed an issue, then it must be on DICE's end, since the player surely did not change. With, on average, smaller maps and a higher player density, more boxes should be dropped. So we need to look at the class itself. With the small bag that is hard to see and immediately vanishes when someone walks over it and has to actively be thrown towards a player, there is an issue. The box is the superior item for resupplying others, because it is passive, so removing the pouch would make more boxes dropped.
Another reason is the loadout. If you run limpet/crossbow/mortar which all replenish automatically there is no need for the support player to equip ammo to resupply gadgets. All the while the other classes are still dependent on the support class for ammo. That is counterproductive.
If you want ammo to be dropped and stay dropped you need to softly force the support player to do it for himself and others. That is the core problem of resupplying.

The most important thing though: If there is indeed a perceived lack of ammo laid down on the map, and it is noticed negatively by the player, the player himself should question if he should maybe redeploy and resupply. Same with repairs and reviving. It is a team game after all.

Posts: 3,674

Date of registration
: Mar 19th 2014

Platform: Xbox One

Location: Canada

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 16

  • Send private message

53

Tuesday, May 1st 2018, 4:47pm

Well said. Removing the small pouch and making all Support gadgets require resupply would do wonders for their teammates actually being able to find ammo. I usually use the pouch myself, and while it's great if I'm intentionally handing out ammo, it also means I'm never leaving any around for people to find.

Gadget slot 2 should be locked to Ammo Box.
Who Enjoys, Wins

Posts: 1,234

Date of registration
: Dec 7th 2011

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 12

  • Send private message

54

Tuesday, May 1st 2018, 6:03pm



Gadget slot 2 should be locked to Ammo Box.

I'm very much against locked slots. Not only would it eliminate useful setups like the wrench+ HE mortar "Engineer" support, but the main reason is that other players are not your servants, so if you desperately want ammo then play support and bring your own.
Most supports are going to carry ammo to feed those bullet hungry LMGs anyway, no need to force those who want to play a different style into a set mold, or to a different class altogether.

Now what I'd like to see is ammo crates spawning at captured flags. That would give players an alternative if they are out of rounds an no ammo is found, while teams where support players are able to effectively distribute ammo at the front line will have a mobility advantage.
bob

Posts: 2,015

Date of registration
: Jan 12th 2014

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 14

  • Send private message

55

Tuesday, May 1st 2018, 6:28pm

Yeah we had the discussion before and I would agree that it can be frustrating, but I would also conclude that it is a different view on Online Games, or the BF series in particular. Generally I would really say that it is not an issue for most players, since you die before you run out of ammo, if you do, you will very likely have a body near you to pick up a kit and start from there. Redeploying is an option as well. Or to go out your way and look for a crate or support player. From a personal view I never had problems, even on longer killstreaks and playing with all gadgets I was rarely out on anything.

In BF1 in particular I would say that, if fewer ammoboxes are indeed an issue, then it must be on DICE's end, since the player surely did not change. With, on average, smaller maps and a higher player density, more boxes should be dropped. So we need to look at the class itself. With the small bag that is hard to see and immediately vanishes when someone walks over it and has to actively be thrown towards a player, there is an issue. The box is the superior item for resupplying others, because it is passive, so removing the pouch would make more boxes dropped.
Another reason is the loadout. If you run limpet/crossbow/mortar which all replenish automatically there is no need for the support player to equip ammo to resupply gadgets. All the while the other classes are still dependent on the support class for ammo. That is counterproductive.
If you want ammo to be dropped and stay dropped you need to softly force the support player to do it for himself and others. That is the core problem of resupplying.

The most important thing though: If there is indeed a perceived lack of ammo laid down on the map, and it is noticed negatively by the player, the player himself should question if he should maybe redeploy and resupply. Same with repairs and reviving. It is a team game after all.


You rarely run out of bullets before dying, but it is very easy to run out of gadgets before dying.

Recon gets two flares, which can easily be expended to useful ends without ever risking dying, and obviously you don't want the flare gun to have 100% uptime, but its a pain in the ass to get it resupplied after.

Removing the pouches doesn't matter, resupplying from a support player has been a trashy mechanic since BF2.

In 1942 and BFV you resupplied from boxes at flags/uncaps and it worked fine. In all subsequent battlefields you can just camp at a choke point surrounded by ammo boxes and gadget spam for hours, but you sure as shit can't find a box/pouch on an open/fluid map.

VincentNZ

Holy War? No Thanks.

(2,416)

Posts: 2,810

Date of registration
: Jul 25th 2013

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 16

  • Send private message

56

Wednesday, May 2nd 2018, 12:36am

Yeah we had the discussion before and I would agree that it can be frustrating, but I would also conclude that it is a different view on Online Games, or the BF series in particular. Generally I would really say that it is not an issue for most players, since you die before you run out of ammo, if you do, you will very likely have a body near you to pick up a kit and start from there. Redeploying is an option as well. Or to go out your way and look for a crate or support player. From a personal view I never had problems, even on longer killstreaks and playing with all gadgets I was rarely out on anything.

In BF1 in particular I would say that, if fewer ammoboxes are indeed an issue, then it must be on DICE's end, since the player surely did not change. With, on average, smaller maps and a higher player density, more boxes should be dropped. So we need to look at the class itself. With the small bag that is hard to see and immediately vanishes when someone walks over it and has to actively be thrown towards a player, there is an issue. The box is the superior item for resupplying others, because it is passive, so removing the pouch would make more boxes dropped.
Another reason is the loadout. If you run limpet/crossbow/mortar which all replenish automatically there is no need for the support player to equip ammo to resupply gadgets. All the while the other classes are still dependent on the support class for ammo. That is counterproductive.
If you want ammo to be dropped and stay dropped you need to softly force the support player to do it for himself and others. That is the core problem of resupplying.

The most important thing though: If there is indeed a perceived lack of ammo laid down on the map, and it is noticed negatively by the player, the player himself should question if he should maybe redeploy and resupply. Same with repairs and reviving. It is a team game after all.


You rarely run out of bullets before dying, but it is very easy to run out of gadgets before dying.

Recon gets two flares, which can easily be expended to useful ends without ever risking dying, and obviously you don't want the flare gun to have 100% uptime, but its a pain in the ass to get it resupplied after.

Removing the pouches doesn't matter, resupplying from a support player has been a trashy mechanic since BF2.

In 1942 and BFV you resupplied from boxes at flags/uncaps and it worked fine. In all subsequent battlefields you can just camp at a choke point surrounded by ammo boxes and gadget spam for hours, but you sure as shit can't find a box/pouch on an open/fluid map.


That just vastly differs from my experience. I agree that the gadget ammo in BF1 is rather limited and the flare especially is rather tiresome. However I was usually able to find a box or support without undue hassle. I firmly believe that players should treat gadgets as a resource as well and calculate the potential need for resupply in their use. I can not identify the players as a problem at all, but it is the mechanics attached that are broken. The pouch probably is the biggest problem because it halves the possibilities for resupply. You actively need to find a support player instead of also having the chance to locate a crate. Supports not carrying ammo is probably a smaller issue, but it naturally exists more than before with auto-replenish.
If you want more ammo boxes lying around you could increase the number you can have them, or the radius, but most importantly you need the support player that drops a crate for himself. If there is indeed an ammo problem it is fully on DICE.

I would agree with Spectacle and BU though. I think a locked ammo crate is desirable, but the wrench is another support gadget which would then not be picked at all. But on the other hand I would say the wrench belongs to the assault class, so that every player has a direct teamplay gadget.

I am totally against ammocrates at flags, because it can create lopsided matches when a team is pushed back and also it would just enhance the "battlefrontesque" effect of no direct teamplay actions but more playing alongside other players. You need to see that you are actively contributing to teamwork, otherwise it will to abstract as a concept.

NoctyrneSAGA

PvF 2017 Champion

(10,320)

Posts: 7,285

Date of registration
: Apr 3rd 2012

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 19

  • Send private message

57

Wednesday, May 2nd 2018, 12:45am

Replenishing a resource is not the only form of direct teamplay.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

"Skill" may indeed be the most magical of words. Chant it well enough and any desire can be yours.

Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

Posts: 2,015

Date of registration
: Jan 12th 2014

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 14

  • Send private message

58

Wednesday, May 2nd 2018, 1:14am

Yeah we had the discussion before and I would agree that it can be frustrating, but I would also conclude that it is a different view on Online Games, or the BF series in particular. Generally I would really say that it is not an issue for most players, since you die before you run out of ammo, if you do, you will very likely have a body near you to pick up a kit and start from there. Redeploying is an option as well. Or to go out your way and look for a crate or support player. From a personal view I never had problems, even on longer killstreaks and playing with all gadgets I was rarely out on anything.

In BF1 in particular I would say that, if fewer ammoboxes are indeed an issue, then it must be on DICE's end, since the player surely did not change. With, on average, smaller maps and a higher player density, more boxes should be dropped. So we need to look at the class itself. With the small bag that is hard to see and immediately vanishes when someone walks over it and has to actively be thrown towards a player, there is an issue. The box is the superior item for resupplying others, because it is passive, so removing the pouch would make more boxes dropped.
Another reason is the loadout. If you run limpet/crossbow/mortar which all replenish automatically there is no need for the support player to equip ammo to resupply gadgets. All the while the other classes are still dependent on the support class for ammo. That is counterproductive.
If you want ammo to be dropped and stay dropped you need to softly force the support player to do it for himself and others. That is the core problem of resupplying.

The most important thing though: If there is indeed a perceived lack of ammo laid down on the map, and it is noticed negatively by the player, the player himself should question if he should maybe redeploy and resupply. Same with repairs and reviving. It is a team game after all.


You rarely run out of bullets before dying, but it is very easy to run out of gadgets before dying.

Recon gets two flares, which can easily be expended to useful ends without ever risking dying, and obviously you don't want the flare gun to have 100% uptime, but its a pain in the ass to get it resupplied after.

Removing the pouches doesn't matter, resupplying from a support player has been a trashy mechanic since BF2.

In 1942 and BFV you resupplied from boxes at flags/uncaps and it worked fine. In all subsequent battlefields you can just camp at a choke point surrounded by ammo boxes and gadget spam for hours, but you sure as shit can't find a box/pouch on an open/fluid map.


That just vastly differs from my experience. I agree that the gadget ammo in BF1 is rather limited and the flare especially is rather tiresome. However I was usually able to find a box or support without undue hassle. I firmly believe that players should treat gadgets as a resource as well and calculate the potential need for resupply in their use. I can not identify the players as a problem at all, but it is the mechanics attached that are broken. The pouch probably is the biggest problem because it halves the possibilities for resupply. You actively need to find a support player instead of also having the chance to locate a crate. Supports not carrying ammo is probably a smaller issue, but it naturally exists more than before with auto-replenish.
If you want more ammo boxes lying around you could increase the number you can have them, or the radius, but most importantly you need the support player that drops a crate for himself. If there is indeed an ammo problem it is fully on DICE.

I would agree with Spectacle and BU though. I think a locked ammo crate is desirable, but the wrench is another support gadget which would then not be picked at all. But on the other hand I would say the wrench belongs to the assault class, so that every player has a direct teamplay gadget.

I am totally against ammocrates at flags, because it can create lopsided matches when a team is pushed back and also it would just enhance the "battlefrontesque" effect of no direct teamplay actions but more playing alongside other players. You need to see that you are actively contributing to teamwork, otherwise it will to abstract as a concept.


For ammo to work properly as a form of direct teamwork, a support player must actively seek out assaults actively engaged in fighting armor, or scouts who are in a position to spam flares. If you're fighting a tank and you're not actively being resupplied from the moment you start firing, by the time you've found a crate and waited the time to resupply the tank is probably somewhere else entirely, been killed by someone else, or is back to full health.

Locking support to being 50% ammo bitch is basically a death sentence for the class unless their other gadget is amazing (of equal potency to the syringe or something).

BF1942 and BFV played great with flag-based resupply. IMO, they actually had way better map dynamics (except for the handful of crappy maps) than BF1. Having ammo on flags actually reduces choke-point camping because you can't plant ammo right next to the place you camp.

BF games have not experimented very much with classes since the huge array of classes in BF2 and I think that's a mistake. BF1 had a really successful experiment with the pilot/tanker classes, but those are really secondary classes. I think the experiment of getting rid of eng and splitting it between Assault/Support is a failed experiment outside of BF1's decided lack of vehicles.

Posts: 3,674

Date of registration
: Mar 19th 2014

Platform: Xbox One

Location: Canada

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 16

  • Send private message

59

Wednesday, May 2nd 2018, 5:20am

That just vastly differs from my experience. I agree that the gadget ammo in BF1 is rather limited and the flare especially is rather tiresome. However I was usually able to find a box or support without undue hassle. I firmly believe that players should treat gadgets as a resource as well and calculate the potential need for resupply in their use. I can not identify the players as a problem at all, but it is the mechanics attached that are broken. The pouch probably is the biggest problem because it halves the possibilities for resupply. You actively need to find a support player instead of also having the chance to locate a crate. Supports not carrying ammo is probably a smaller issue, but it naturally exists more than before with auto-replenish.
If you want more ammo boxes lying around you could increase the number you can have them, or the radius, but most importantly you need the support player that drops a crate for himself. If there is indeed an ammo problem it is fully on DICE.


Exactly this. Support gadgets self-resupplying and the mechanics of Pouches are absolutely the most significant contributors to lack of placed Crates in BF1. Good game design is based around player psychology, and both of these have the exact opposite effect we want from players.

So many unnecessary gadgets doesn't help either.


Quoted

I would agree with Spectacle and BU though. I think a locked ammo crate is desirable, but the wrench is another support gadget which would then not be picked at all. But on the other hand I would say the wrench belongs to the assault class, so that every player has a direct teamplay gadget.


Indeed. Assault should get the Wrench, TNT, and Mines as its Slot 2 gadget (the teamplay and defensive/placeable ones, same style the other classes should be).


Quoted

I am totally against ammocrates at flags, because it can create lopsided matches when a team is pushed back and also it would just enhance the "battlefrontesque" effect of no direct teamplay actions but more playing alongside other players. You need to see that you are actively contributing to teamwork, otherwise it will to abstract as a concept.


Same. I'm really not interested in passive/no-intent "teamplay" items, I think they're poor design that emphasizes the wrong playstyles and gameplay, and I especially dislike those that actively detract from teamplay like Flag-based supplies.
Who Enjoys, Wins

Posts: 2,015

Date of registration
: Jan 12th 2014

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 14

  • Send private message

60

Wednesday, May 2nd 2018, 5:24am

Have you guys actually played BF1942 and BFV? Or are you just complaining about things because you don't like them?