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NoctyrneSAGA

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41

Tuesday, May 1st 2018, 12:15am

@VincentNZ

What is annoying is that one of the most important core gameplay loops of a shooter is tied to a resource that is managed by another player.

Said player may be Helen Keller and be completely oblivious to all of your attempts to get their attention.

You can do everything right from using chat, commo rose, VOIP, jumping up and down, being in their face, etc. and it still won't make them drop ammo.

Then when you finally get to resupply, you spent so long doing it that you start to wonder whether you should have just respawned to save yourself all that time, trouble, and tears. And while you wonder, you get your answer in the form of an enemy's bullets in your vulnerable face.



My answer would therefore have to be all of the above.

Resupply times have a lower limit that is specified in the files. But of course that lower limit is usually not what we see. We either see something way lower with people who enjoy the redeploy, dump ammo, redeploy loop. Or we see something way longer in the case of people who are actually interested in staying alive.

The search for an ammo box adds an unknown X time to your effective resupply that makes the consistency of redeploying more attractive. Especially when I factor in all the times I die once I finally reach a box.

Sure when everyone is communicating, the game is all sunshines and rainbows but that just goes to show how fragile the design is.



I like robust designs that don't leave situations where the player pretty much only has Shitty Option A, Shitty Option B, and Shitty Option C while dangling the options they actually want far away.



Basically situations like this.
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Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


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42

Tuesday, May 1st 2018, 12:48am

This is a discuasion of philosophy, there's nothing inherently/objectively wrong with that situation. This is simply a case of alternate perspectives.

Thinking you should be able to survive indefinitely with indefinite resources is only one specific set of values. Another equally valid perspective is that if you're given limited resources, your task is to make the best use of those resources possible. Success is then measured differently. You succeed by using your rocket launcher ammo to its best potential, if you did that, you've succeeded, and a skilled player is one who can get the most out of their limited resources (bad players waste them).


What you're doing is imposing your values on a system designed for different ones. Of course you're going to disagree with it, but that's not a problwm with the system.
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Tuesday, May 1st 2018, 1:38am

This is a discuasion of philosophy, there's nothing inherently/objectively wrong with that situation. This is simply a case of alternate perspectives.

Thinking you should be able to survive indefinitely with indefinite resources is only one specific set of values. Another equally valid perspective is that if you're given limited resources, your task is to make the best use of those resources possible. Success is then measured differently. You succeed by using your rocket launcher ammo to its best potential, if you did that, you've succeeded, and a skilled player is one who can get the most out of their limited resources (bad players waste them).


What you're doing is imposing your values on a system designed for different ones. Of course you're going to disagree with it, but that's not a problwm with the system.


If resupplying yourself is only viable if you are trying to pad KDR at the expense of other "values" then it's a bad mechanic. Respawning/redeploying an asset should not be the most efficient way to get back into a fight because death/destruction are supposed to be outcomes of failing, especially when they give points to the enemy team (or bleed away your team's reserve).

BF devs really need to figure out what the hell they are doing with resupplies. You end up with very binary situations where you can perk/class stack and have unlimited magic seeking missile spam (javelins + stingers out of little birds or armor with driver with supply perk), or you just never see a damn ammo pack. Tying vehicle ammo supply to support player deployables was also a super stupid idea and I'm glad it's dead.

In prior games you could at least efficiently grab a dead person's kit from their dropped pack, but BF1 has a horrible system for that. I barely can even see enemy kits in BF1 because it's tied to a dropped gun instead of an obvious kit. If you find a dead player of the same class as you, at the minimum you should be able to passively scavenge their un-expended gadgets that match yours.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "tankmayvin" (May 1st 2018, 1:50am)


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Tuesday, May 1st 2018, 2:09am

I agree death/destruction shouldn't be most efficent, that's why overtly redeploying would be disallowed, and all forms of suicide would carry a penalty harsh enough to always make it unappealing. Simple.

Kits actually being visible as large packs (as they have been before) and allowing walk-over resupply of same-ammo items from those packs would both be wonderful, I'd like to see those.
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Tuesday, May 1st 2018, 2:31am

I agree death/destruction shouldn't be most efficent, that's why overtly redeploying would be disallowed, and all forms of suicide would carry a penalty harsh enough to always make it unappealing. Simple.

Kits actually being visible as large packs (as they have been before) and allowing walk-over resupply of same-ammo items from those packs would both be wonderful, I'd like to see those.


Battlefield just has never been in a good place in terms of player lifespan, versus ammo expenditure, versus gadget expenditure, versus availability of resupply. They solved this problem for vehicles by simply giving them unlimited ammo, something that won't work for all infantry classes. One of the reason support often gets shitty toys is due to the self-spam potential, but then the ability to endlessly spam rockets with the appropriate stacking of kits, perks, and vehicles was clearly a deliberate design feature but its actually pretty shitty since it can only be countered with equal spam stacking. Just like how most of the time you don't need ammo because you die so fast, but then when you need ammo you can never get it. Overall pretty shitty.

They know this a problem, they obviously don't know how to fix it: see ammo 2.0 fiasco.

I think scavenging ammo in-field (off of dead players, dead friendlies, certain vehicle hulks), combined with a reduction in small arms ammo counts would go a long way to making resupply an actually interesting mechanic instead of a very frustrating or exploitable one. Making transports actually useful by providing infantry with ammo would also really help. I think you should actually have to think about resupplying more often, but that it shouldn't be an exercise in unicorn hunting.

NoctyrneSAGA

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Tuesday, May 1st 2018, 2:58am

I think scavenging ammo in-field (off of dead players, dead friendlies, certain vehicle hulks), combined with a reduction in small arms ammo counts would go a long way to making resupply an actually interesting mechanic instead of a very frustrating or exploitable one. Making transports actually useful by providing infantry with ammo would also really help. I think you should actually have to think about resupplying more often, but that it shouldn't be an exercise in unicorn hunting.


The trouble with those solutions is that you devalue the support's ammo gadgets even more. At which point it shouldn't even be a gadget anymore.

The difference between The Floor Is Ammo and Ammo 2.0 is that Support still held a monopoly over boosting resupply speed so it still had some relevance.

The Floor Is Ammo simply allows anyone to do the same thing that Support would be able to do normally but with greater convenience.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

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Tuesday, May 1st 2018, 3:07am

I think scavenging ammo in-field (off of dead players, dead friendlies, certain vehicle hulks), combined with a reduction in small arms ammo counts would go a long way to making resupply an actually interesting mechanic instead of a very frustrating or exploitable one. Making transports actually useful by providing infantry with ammo would also really help. I think you should actually have to think about resupplying more often, but that it shouldn't be an exercise in unicorn hunting.


The trouble with those solutions is that you devalue the support's ammo gadgets even more. At which point it shouldn't even be a gadget anymore.

The difference between The Floor Is Ammo and Ammo 2.0 is that Support still held a monopoly over boosting resupply speed so it still had some relevance.

The Floor Is Ammo simply allows anyone to do the same thing that Support would be able to do normally but with greater convenience.


Well, considering that support + resupply mechanic has never really worked properly in any of the BF games, I'm starting to think that the mechanic+associated gadgets need to be fundamentally changed, anyway.

If your complaint is that the resupply mechanic is tied to another player's actions, then clearly that means that the supply gadgets are broken.

Running out of ammo should be something you need to worry about in BF, but resupplying should be more fun than pulling teeth.

NoctyrneSAGA

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Tuesday, May 1st 2018, 3:42am

I think scavenging ammo in-field (off of dead players, dead friendlies, certain vehicle hulks), combined with a reduction in small arms ammo counts would go a long way to making resupply an actually interesting mechanic instead of a very frustrating or exploitable one. Making transports actually useful by providing infantry with ammo would also really help. I think you should actually have to think about resupplying more often, but that it shouldn't be an exercise in unicorn hunting.


The trouble with those solutions is that you devalue the support's ammo gadgets even more. At which point it shouldn't even be a gadget anymore.

The difference between The Floor Is Ammo and Ammo 2.0 is that Support still held a monopoly over boosting resupply speed so it still had some relevance.

The Floor Is Ammo simply allows anyone to do the same thing that Support would be able to do normally but with greater convenience.


Well, considering that support + resupply mechanic has never really worked properly in any of the BF games, I'm starting to think that the mechanic+associated gadgets need to be fundamentally changed, anyway.

If your complaint is that the resupply mechanic is tied to another player's actions, then clearly that means that the supply gadgets are broken.

Running out of ammo should be something you need to worry about in BF, but resupplying should be more fun than pulling teeth.


I'm saying it's not fun because another player has to do it and you have little to no influence on being able to change that.

If you give players a way out, things can get better but increasing the amount of sources that do the exact same thing that support does (spawn an ammo box/pouch) just devalues support.

And you are right, I would much rather see Battlefield move past treating resource management as the primary form of teamplay.

It's boring and mindless for the person doing it and for the person on the receiving end all it does is enable them to continue playing.

Just look at repstacks in previous Battlefields. Mind-numbingly simple to do, incredibly effective, and just sad that it exists. Rep monkeys don't need any further involvement in the gameplay loop aside from holding LMB and staring at a friendly tank for the entire game.



I've recently started playing Company of Heroes 2 again and I'm a big fan of how they handle teamwork between the different units.

Different units have different ways to contribute to solving a problem. Let's start off with destroying a tank.



In BF1, we have Assault that basically has a monopoly over all of the AT gadgets that actually deal great damage.

Medic and Support can help deal more damage with rifle nades. But they'll probably mostly be keeping the primary damage dealer in the fight.

Then there's Scout that interrupts repair cycles for a limited time with K Bullets or spots vehicles for friendlies.

Almost all of this is just dealing some form of damage.



We go into CoH2 and we have a slow-moving AT gun as our primary damage dealer. Pretty long range but poor mobility and fire rate. Hits hard, but can be kited.

Then we have another unit that has some sort of explosive which deals okay damage but it lacks range, has a long cooldown, costs a munitions resource, and is an active ability instead of the unit's actual attack. However, it still has utility in that it slows the target down thereby making it easier for other units to give chase. Like a super slow AT Gun.

Then we have the sniper unit which can inflict a different set of debuffs like stunning the tank, temporarily jamming its turret, etc. that interrupts its attacks. Again making it easier for other units to get into position.

The latter two units don't even have to restrict their application to setting up damage either. Those debuffs can be used to halt an attack to save other units from their demise.

What I like out of this system is that these units create teamwork opportunities for each other to play off of instead of enabling each other to continue to function.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


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Tuesday, May 1st 2018, 5:13am

I'm saying it's not fun because another player has to do it and you have little to no influence on being able to change that.

And you are right, I would much rather see Battlefield move past treating resource management as the primary form of teamplay.

It's boring and mindless for the person doing it and for the person on the receiving end all it does is enable them to continue playing.

Just look at repstacks in previous Battlefields. Mind-numbingly simple to do, incredibly effective, and just sad that it exists. Rep monkeys don't need any further involvement in the gameplay loop aside from holding LMB and staring at a friendly tank for the entire game.

----

What I like out of this system is that these units create teamwork opportunities for each other to play off of instead of enabling each other to continue to function.


All of these right here are precisely what I've been referring to with regards to these being subjective values based on personal values and philosophy. You're entirely free to prefer certain forms of gameplay, but that doesn't make those forms of gameplay in any way superior to the ones you don't like.

None of this is any more objective than liking one genre of music and disliking another. It's pure personal preference and what elements of a given thing you choose to value.

"I prefer a game where players are always self-sufficient, but complement each other's abilities" is no more or less correct than "I prefer a game where players assume specialized roles and rely on each other to create a whole and get the job done". Pure personal preference.
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