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VincentNZ

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Wednesday, April 11th 2018, 1:03am

Nah it is one of the very basic teamplay elements. Even if you only nerf it slightly the chances are, that it will get phased out with another gadget. BF discourages basic teamplay actions enough as it is, the average joe will revive others, the more often he gets revived. Also always keep in mind that the medic is putting his life on the line with every revive as well.

I surely did not get revived more often in BF1 even with the medic radar and that is to be blamed on the separation of assault/medic and the score nerf for revives, as well as giving the medic the rifle grenade. Medic trains have also always been a myth to me either, even in BF3. That is just the side effect of playing maps designed for maximum 32 players with 64 instead. If you do indeed see a revive train on a BF4 map, you are playing against a squad that is actually working together. Tough luck for lonewolfs, if they are not good enough.

As far as putting a longer timer on either the medic or the patient, or a suppression mechanic, that just makes reviving inconsistent and intransparent, therefore less viable and, as a result, less chosed. The BF4 system was alright: Some risk, high reward, not as extreme as in BF3.

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Wednesday, April 11th 2018, 2:22am

Nah it is one of the very basic teamplay elements. Even if you only nerf it slightly the chances are, that it will get phased out with another gadget. BF discourages basic teamplay actions enough as it is, the average joe will revive others, the more often he gets revived. Also always keep in mind that the medic is putting his life on the line with every revive as well.

I surely did not get revived more often in BF1 even with the medic radar and that is to be blamed on the separation of assault/medic and the score nerf for revives, as well as giving the medic the rifle grenade. Medic trains have also always been a myth to me either, even in BF3. That is just the side effect of playing maps designed for maximum 32 players with 64 instead. If you do indeed see a revive train on a BF4 map, you are playing against a squad that is actually working together. Tough luck for lonewolfs, if they are not good enough.

As far as putting a longer timer on either the medic or the patient, or a suppression mechanic, that just makes reviving inconsistent and intransparent, therefore less viable and, as a result, less chosed. The BF4 system was alright: Some risk, high reward, not as extreme as in BF3.


Oh, medic trains absolutely were a thing, but only a select few maps: specifically Metro, Bazaar. But also on a few others with close flags and features that concentrated players in locations.

In those sorts of situations, if the matchup was lopsided enough that one group/team was winning very decisive engagements, they could get almost all of the dead people up and then rush to new flags or a better chokepoint position before the other team could respawn and reposition. So this really snowballed firefight wins into map wins.

A big aspect of this is that BF really has two personalities: It's got the big, expansive maps with combined arms and maneuver. And then its got the close quarters maps with a couple, or no vehicle assets and a lot of concentrated action. The big open maps really just do not see the sort of problems that plague the close quarters maps: explosive spam, grenade spam, paddle spam, etc.

Ground vehicles, flags that need transports to get to, and generally just spreading out the action all fix a lot of the problems dealing with nade/gadget spam.

Oscar

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Wednesday, April 11th 2018, 1:35pm

On the other hand, what wrong with having a class like medic in its current implementation?
Medic's tools are undeniably useful, but their strengh lies more in the fact that you're going to need healing far more often than explosives, ammo or spotting aid.

I'll go ahead and ask, you speak of a Medic-centric meta, but do you have any numbers to back this up? Own personal experiences wildly vary, but the only times I see a moderately large amount of Medics (8+) is if players from the same platoon/group are playing together and want to increase their chances of survival. Outside of those cases, the amount of Medics I see usually ranges from 3 to 6, with Support and Assault dominating the numbers, while scout replaces Assault in maps that offer very long lines of sight.

It is not to say that heals-on-demand and revives aren't a problematic combo, but as far as BF1 is concerned right now, I really don't think it's a problem. Medic can fight continuously until they run out of ammo as long as they survive an engagement with just a single point of health, while other classes have to wait or seek healing. Part of what TTK2.0 (I assume) looked to accomplish is being able to down enemies more efficiently so the disparity of combat efficiency between other classes and Medic was reduced.
End of the line here is that Medic trains/revive spam are only a problem if you don't have enough firepower to kill the dude who just got revived. That is not the case right now as far as I'm concerned, nor do I think that heal+rez is hurting BF1's balance.
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VincentNZ

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Wednesday, April 11th 2018, 2:14pm

There is nothing inherently wrong with having a dedicated medic class, but if you want to incentivise reviving you need the class to be enjoyable when played that way. This can be done by a universally useful and easy to use weapon, like we had before and a good risk/reward balance when going for the revive. Only having situational offensive gagdets help as well.

In terms of having self-heal is problematic I would say this is mostly due to the game meta. With focusing more on duel-weapons with 64 players and the easy high damage potential of snipers on the maps being able to medicate onself is a huge advantage. Way more than before, where you could kill three guys fast with one mag and little risk with a smart flank.

And yeah the discrepancy between certain map types is a problem as well.

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Wednesday, April 11th 2018, 2:45pm

On the other hand, what wrong with having a class like medic in its current implementation?
Medic's tools are undeniably useful, but their strengh lies more in the fact that you're going to need healing far more often than explosives, ammo or spotting aid.

I'll go ahead and ask, you speak of a Medic-centric meta, but do you have any numbers to back this up? Own personal experiences wildly vary, but the only times I see a moderately large amount of Medics (8+) is if players from the same platoon/group are playing together and want to increase their chances of survival. Outside of those cases, the amount of Medics I see usually ranges from 3 to 6, with Support and Assault dominating the numbers, while scout replaces Assault in maps that offer very long lines of sight.

It is not to say that heals-on-demand and revives aren't a problematic combo, but as far as BF1 is concerned right now, I really don't think it's a problem. Medic can fight continuously until they run out of ammo as long as they survive an engagement with just a single point of health, while other classes have to wait or seek healing. Part of what TTK2.0 (I assume) looked to accomplish is being able to down enemies more efficiently so the disparity of combat efficiency between other classes and Medic was reduced.
End of the line here is that Medic trains/revive spam are only a problem if you don't have enough firepower to kill the dude who just got revived. That is not the case right now as far as I'm concerned, nor do I think that heal+rez is hurting BF1's balance.


I'm glad you brought this up and it's sort of the response I was expecting. I want to stress I have nothing to back this up except my own experience of the last few BF entries and I wanted to test the water and see what others think. My experience is all I have to add here, and from what I've seen in BF3, BF4 and BF1 is that medic trains can be a real problem, especially in the absence of vehicles. If a clan is going all medics and that is allowing them to steamroll enemy teams then I'd say that is a problem. This was definitely worse in BF3 and 4 where Assault had decent enough primaries to combine with the heals/ revs to make other classes totally redundant. Now the problem is still bad but not quite as severe. If scout and support gadgets are so weak that medics can just revive train right through any amount of firepower, then something needs to change.

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Wednesday, April 11th 2018, 7:37pm

Well like what would you buff exactly? Making grenades or rocket launchers real strong has it's own problems and what other gadgets would even disrupt a medic train?

No way you're gonna be able to go get mines around a body and if you make mortars too strong then that's got a whole host of problems as well.

NoctyrneSAGA

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Wednesday, April 11th 2018, 7:45pm

what other gadgets would even disrupt a medic train?


Bombing downed players with AoEs (lingering ones are especially good).

People make grenade and explosives sound like a bad thing.

Then they complain when they don't have solutions to problems like medic trains.
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VincentNZ

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Wednesday, April 11th 2018, 8:11pm

The arguments make sense, but I wonder if it is statistically relevant. If you really meet a clan going full medic, even in BF3, I doubt the revives are the real problem here, but the communication between the squadmembers. I never thought classes were redundant either, especially since kits can just be picked up.

It might be a problem in low player count competitive matches, but how statistically relevant is this? The best counter to a team playing together is still employing the same method.

Oscar

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Thursday, April 12th 2018, 12:26am

Spoiler Spoiler

On the other hand, what wrong with having a class like medic in its current implementation?
Medic's tools are undeniably useful, but their strengh lies more in the fact that you're going to need healing far more often than explosives, ammo or spotting aid.

I'll go ahead and ask, you speak of a Medic-centric meta, but do you have any numbers to back this up? Own personal experiences wildly vary, but the only times I see a moderately large amount of Medics (8+) is if players from the same platoon/group are playing together and want to increase their chances of survival. Outside of those cases, the amount of Medics I see usually ranges from 3 to 6, with Support and Assault dominating the numbers, while scout replaces Assault in maps that offer very long lines of sight.

It is not to say that heals-on-demand and revives aren't a problematic combo, but as far as BF1 is concerned right now, I really don't think it's a problem. Medic can fight continuously until they run out of ammo as long as they survive an engagement with just a single point of health, while other classes have to wait or seek healing. Part of what TTK2.0 (I assume) looked to accomplish is being able to down enemies more efficiently so the disparity of combat efficiency between other classes and Medic was reduced.
End of the line here is that Medic trains/revive spam are only a problem if you don't have enough firepower to kill the dude who just got revived. That is not the case right now as far as I'm concerned, nor do I think that heal+rez is hurting BF1's balance.


I'm glad you brought this up and it's sort of the response I was expecting. I want to stress I have nothing to back this up except my own experience of the last few BF entries and I wanted to test the water and see what others think. My experience is all I have to add here, and from what I've seen in BF3, BF4 and BF1 is that medic trains can be a real problem, especially in the absence of vehicles. If a clan is going all medics and that is allowing them to steamroll enemy teams then I'd say that is a problem. This was definitely worse in BF3 and 4 where Assault had decent enough primaries to combine with the heals/ revs to make other classes totally redundant. Now the problem is still bad but not quite as severe. If scout and support gadgets are so weak that medics can just revive train right through any amount of firepower, then something needs to change.


I don't think Gadgets are an issue, really. They're not devoid of use, their use just isn't as easily applicable as healing. By focusing on the gadgets the weapons get entirely ignored too, when those should be taken into account, a Support may not be able to heal, but they can pack enough firepower to mow down a full squad without having to lift the finger of LMB, while assault can just bumrush and win fights effortlessly.

Adressing your points about clans running full medics and steamrolling, the issue doesn't lie in that they're stacking medics, it's just a way they can ensure to keep as many people alive as possible. If the players are "capable", they'd steamroll with any class provided they're not running gimped loadouts to begin with. Then, when you mention how support or scout gadgets might be too weak so that Medics can just revive with ease, I'd say you're straying too far off the point, as Supports or Scouts gadgets lack immediate killing power for the most part; It's why you have to keep in mind each classes' arsenal, too. Maybe you can't use your gadget to kill those medics but your weapon sure can.
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I find majority of the complaints I hear about this game somehow never appear in my games.

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Thursday, April 12th 2018, 6:47am

On the other hand, what wrong with having a class like medic in its current implementation?
Medic's tools are undeniably useful, but their strengh lies more in the fact that you're going to need healing far more often than explosives, ammo or spotting aid.

I'll go ahead and ask, you speak of a Medic-centric meta, but do you have any numbers to back this up? Own personal experiences wildly vary, but the only times I see a moderately large amount of Medics (8+) is if players from the same platoon/group are playing together and want to increase their chances of survival. Outside of those cases, the amount of Medics I see usually ranges from 3 to 6, with Support and Assault dominating the numbers, while scout replaces Assault in maps that offer very long lines of sight.

It is not to say that heals-on-demand and revives aren't a problematic combo, but as far as BF1 is concerned right now, I really don't think it's a problem. Medic can fight continuously until they run out of ammo as long as they survive an engagement with just a single point of health, while other classes have to wait or seek healing. Part of what TTK2.0 (I assume) looked to accomplish is being able to down enemies more efficiently so the disparity of combat efficiency between other classes and Medic was reduced.
End of the line here is that Medic trains/revive spam are only a problem if you don't have enough firepower to kill the dude who just got revived. That is not the case right now as far as I'm concerned, nor do I think that heal+rez is hurting BF1's balance.


According to Battlefield tracker:

Assault is the dominant class in the game with 28% overall score. Medic is the next with about 23% and then support (20%) and scout (18%). Overall, its split pretty damn close to 25/25/25/25, with pilot/tanker/cav eating up the residuals of the non-assaults. In other BF games, those would usually be lumped into the engineer score.

So I would say either you're both wrong, or you're both right. Either people are putting in about 25% of their playtime into medics and so they are well represented on a team (average of 7-8/round) but contribute about the same average of all of the other foot classes, or medics are quite rare but score extremely well to make up 20% of the game score.

Personally, I think its most likely that medics are well represented population wise, but only score/dictate the match about the same as any other class.