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  • "sid_tai" started this thread

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Monday, March 19th 2018, 1:07pm

The Call of Duty feeling that BF1 gives compared to BF3

Since the open beta, I have been feeling that the infantry play of BF1 feels like CoD. Today I was thinking about it again, and decided to fire up BF3, BF4 and BF1 to find out why. In the end I believe I have found the reason: action delay, namely 1. sprint out time, 2. ADS time, 3. crouch time.

First, I have found that you cannot shoot immediately when you are sprinting in BF3 and BF4. There is a slight delay. On the contrary, in BF1 it is almost immediate. There is a delay in BF1 too, but it is so small that I think it is several times lower than that of BF3 and BF4. I think this is also a reason why a lot of people and I are frustrated with the Automatico trench meta. The penalty to sprinting everywhere and Automatico-ing everyone is too small.

Second, the ADS-in time BF3 is 0.264, plus 0.333 ADS-out time for RDS/Kobra, which is what 99.9% of infantry players are running with. In BF4, they speed that up to 0.18/0.27, as per here. And in BF1, they further speed that up to 0.133 for ADS in. This is CoD level ADS time, and might even be faster than a lot of CoD weapons with reduced ADS perk. I don't have much to add here, other than that this trend follows the same line as above that favors run-and-gun, twitchy infantry play.

Third, crouch animation is significantly faster in BF4 and BF1 compared to BF3. You can do a crouch/stand-up at around 2 per second in BF3, but at least double that in BF4/BF1. If you do not believe me you can try spamming the crouch button in BF4 and BF1; your screen is going to shake faster than a shake weight. This also confirms my general feeling that BF4 animations are a lot more jittery than BF3.

What are you guys' opinion on this? Personally, even setting aside the other questionable changes/additions to the franchise, this trend is very off-putting to me. BF3 infantry play has this magic where weapons kill fast, infantry move fast, but a lot of actions have delays to them. Not only do they look more realistic, less jittery, but also it adds a tactical layer where you have to decide what you do next. If every action can be performed in a negligible amount of time, twitch reaction is going to dominate, and personally I do not find that very fun or deep.

Finally, do you think BF2018 is going to continue on this twitchy run-and-gun trend? Discuss.

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Monday, March 19th 2018, 2:48pm

ADS times have been differentiated more in BF1 as a means of balance.

The fastest ADS times are 133ms, yet the slowest sit at 400ms which is higher than previous titles'. The most obvious example is the in-class discrepancy of the Hellriegel and Maxim SMG compared to the rest SMGs. In Exchange for large magazines and low TTK they take longer to aim, meaning they're worse off if you can't just hipfire that engagement.
Then have other classes in mind. The current iteration of LMG offer great firepower but can't output accurate fire until they finish their ADS animation of 300ms/400ms, making it so that you can't just Shift+W much like you could with CQB dedicated weapons like the Automatico you mention.

I don't find SMG rushers problematic. CQB meme cannons have very limited use outside 15-20m, so their only choice is to close the gap or die. "Keep your distance" sounds like a meme but that's what you should do, or anticipate rushers. All classes have access to guns with decent CQB performance be it primaries or secondaries, so it doesn't hurt having one in your inventory. You also have "cheese" tactics like Revolver + Heavy melee or Impact nades.

BF3 and BF4 had mechanics that made aggressive playstyles strong, like airstrafing, euro hipfire or zouzou, not to mention the overall low TTK arsenal available.

As far as crouching is concerned, I don't have any issues with it.

Run and gun has been in the game for a long time, there's just a larger difference between guns that can do it and guns that can't.
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Monday, March 19th 2018, 3:05pm

And still, nothing beats BF2 dolphin diving in terms of infuriating game mechanics that needed to die. Zouzou was pretty close though.

There are lots of things to be worried about in BF2018, but "shooting mechanics are like COD" isn't really one of them, IMO.

Using ADS time as a means of balancing different weapons is also pretty great, I think its about time they make use of it, especially as a means of distinguishing heavy weapons like mgs. Too bad it came so late to BF1 meta.

  • "sid_tai" started this thread

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Monday, March 19th 2018, 8:27pm

I would not say it is the shooting mechanics that is like CoD, but the action mechanics.

As for Zouzou and Euro hipfire, would you agree that they are exploits instead of "features"?

Using ADS times as a balance mechanic is fine by me, but I think too low ADS time promotes too much run-and-gun gameplay.

Btw honestly I have never heard of or seen the revolver + *insert your cheese variant* cheese.

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Monday, March 19th 2018, 11:36pm

BF1 ADS times are still better and less frustrative because:
-there is no magic perk/attachment that cuts ADS time to half
-the are somewhat logical:
133ms for iron sight SMGs and SLRs
200ms for lense sight SMGs, SLRs, and iron sight rifles
300ms for iron sight MGs and lense sight rifles <-Hellriegel and Maxim SMG Factory here
400ms for lense sight and scoped MGs <-Hellriegel Defensive and Maxim SMG Optical here
-otherwise, they're look balanced

In CoD BASRs are crap without Sleight of Hands Pro/Quickdraw etc. and godlike at quickscoping with these perks/attachment, in BF1 you can't change ADS times for your weapons without changing scoped/non-scoped variant. Same goes for SMG rushing - in CoD you'll feel like lazy snail without magic perks/attachments in terms of ADSing (HIPfiring in CoD is very unreliable idea even with perks for that) and like God of Rushing with them.
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Tuesday, March 20th 2018, 12:16am

I would not say it is the shooting mechanics that is like CoD, but the action mechanics.

As for Zouzou and Euro hipfire, would you agree that they are exploits instead of "features"?

Using ADS times as a balance mechanic is fine by me, but I think too low ADS time promotes too much run-and-gun gameplay.

Btw honestly I have never heard of or seen the revolver + *insert your cheese variant* cheese.


What is wrong with run and gun gameplay?

It's horribly limited to a couple of maps, and a couple of regions within the rest of the maps.

If you want to complain about things that overly-incentivize running-and-gunning, then the proliferation of weapons with excellent hipfire is where you should be looking as a source of problems.

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Tuesday, March 20th 2018, 2:37am

None of these things are negatives.

The max APM feels slow as mollasses in BF1 despite this and the movement needs a serious rework. BF3 felt amazingly fluid at launch but these days pretty much all the BF games are falling behind in that regard, especially with how big the improvement was form BC2 to BF3.

  • "sid_tai" started this thread

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Tuesday, March 20th 2018, 3:18am

About ADS time balancing, I want to clarify that I am for that 100%. But how about 266/333/400ms tiers? Instead of the lowest tier being 133ms? It can also be balanced.

I think there are quite a few factors contributing to more run-and-gun, but I do not see how reduction of action delays did not contribute to that.

I came to BF3 because I was sick of the run-and-gun in CoD, and was drawn to the tactical aspect of BF3. Run-and-gun is not for me and I just wanted to see if anyone is noticing and disagreeing with this trend. This is not a knock on run-and-gun, as it is purely subjective.

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Tuesday, March 20th 2018, 5:47am

It makes sense that these changes make BF1 feel more COD-like but its not necessarily a bad thing. BF1 is designed to be a fast paced shooter with operations originally at its forefront. The twitch run and gun gameplay places a lot more emphasis on aiming and makes attacking more enjoyable. If anything all of this should add more skill then less. Perhaps all of these amounts to the current zerging meta, but I'd take zerging over a campfest anyday. What BF1 lacks is strategy and teamwork to match this new fast pace and I think DICE really needs to focus on these two aspects over gunplay for the upcoming games.

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Tuesday, March 20th 2018, 6:05am

Interesting you say it's attacking that's more enjoyable; I pretty much exclusively play defence when I play Ops, I drastically prefer it.
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