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21

Saturday, March 17th 2018, 12:17am

No. Not really. In fact that's completely garbage. Who the hell are you to arbitrate what a "good player" is anyway? Don't pass off opinion as fact.


It's not fact so much as a fairly obvious interpretation of the game/devs' intention, of how players are expected/supposed to play the game. I'm not the one trying to force my own preferences and personal playstyle onto the game, in this discussion.

Of course you're free to do whatever you like within the design of the game, but the game is and will always be designed around the vision the devs have for it. This isn't really different than game balance being designed assuming all options are unlocked and available.
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Sunday, March 18th 2018, 4:28am

The very notion that the purpose of the specs is to force people to "learn the game" as Noct suggests is IMO pretty damn insulting.


For competent players like you, yes It's a waste of time.

Unfortunately, you are a dying breed.


I'd argue that a KDR of 1.44 is well below his absolute potential, and that being forced to break bad habits and venture out of one's comfort zones is no more a waste of time for him than it is for most.


My KDR is 5.7?

Who cares about infantry KDR, it's irrelevant, especially in Battlefield.

Grinding unlocks doesn't meaningfully making you try other things, it makes you miopically focus on a carrot.

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Sunday, March 18th 2018, 6:03am

The issue here is you've decided that your view of what one's personal goal in a video game should be is fact, as if it's some sort of measuring stick by which to compare other reasons to play.
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Sunday, March 18th 2018, 5:09pm

tankys vision here is the least instrusive for all players though, whatever their reason to play. Locked items interfere with those who want to play the game for fun or competition or whatever, while pleasng some. If instead only cosmetics were unlockables, no one is hindered.

I think it's very fair to complain about unlocks. It is bad design in a competitive game, and the problem even has solutions that should please everyone.

If DICE want to primarily design for those who like unlocks, they could atleast provide ways to bypass the grind or specific tasks, like a currency you can earn through normal play. Or a hidden unlock everything button I've wanted before. Those who like unlocks wouldn't press it anyways right?

signature 2.2

Things I support
ammo regen pls

Quoted from "NoctyrneSAGA"

_____
When I play with it [Autoloading 8] I feel like I am batman taking out 1 after 1 baddie while they feel helpless and don't know who is talking out their mates.
Remove 3D spotting. Itís a mechanic that rewards bad eyesight.
Wanna help your team by sneaking through enemy territory to provide spawns? THIS IS NOT TEAMWORK FGT I HOPE YOU RUN OUT OF MOTION BALLS TOO EARLY TO BE SUCCESSFUL
Wanna be Javelin squad but only have two guys? BETTER NOT GET YOUR SOFLAM KILLED FGT THIS IS NOT TEAMWORK WITHOUT A SUPPORT DUDE DROPPING AMMO ON YOU EVERY 2 MINUTES
Please post your best M1916 clips Magazines *fixed*.


DICE pls

Squadmate Healthbars in the HUD
Minor console QoL improvements
Ping Tool idea
"Wants to talk" tag for squad menu
Adding Suppression Confirmation
Spotting suggestions

Posts I should finish sometime:
Squad priority vehicle system (and anti stealing suggestion)
Scoring system flaws (and concept)
Battlefield definition
New helicopter idea
Suppression rework
Flow, immersion and fun in battlefield
Specializations: ideas and system rework
Gadget reworks and ideas
Why limited infinite ammo would be awesome
Other bitesize ideas



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Monday, March 19th 2018, 1:21am

The issue here is you've decided that your view of what one's personal goal in a video game should be is fact, as if it's some sort of measuring stick by which to compare other reasons to play.


No. You just missed the point entirely.

The single and solitary purpose of a video game is entertainment. Fun is both the means and the end in video games.

Distilled to the more pure concept: gaming is about entertaining the mind.

The only vision a game should have is maximizing entertainment of it's player base, and then execute technically to achieve this.

Grinding unlocks is deferred fun. It's doing "work" in order to increase your fun later down the road, if you ever get there.

By contrast, a good game delivers fun through the entire evolution of content. Grinding is just not a good game design. It is however effective in getting the brain to release feel-good chemicals, and it is very technically easy to implement, which explains the current generation of gamers growing up "pride and accomplishment".

Look at the stats: the overwhelming number of people who bought BF1 on any platform simply dropped it within less than a month. They never even tolerated the base game long enough to bother grinding out everything for it. I'd love to have some hard data on unlocks, but I would bet most people haven't unlocked a good portion of the guns, nor the specs because they just don't want to bother grinding for a game they only put a few hours a week into.

Flat access is also dramatically better in terms of delivering diverse but balanced that meaningfully impacts the game but doesn't unfairly penalize those that don't get off on "pride and accomplishment". Grind-locking content is not all that different from pay-to-win.

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Monday, March 19th 2018, 2:18am

The single and solitary purpose of a video game is entertainment. Fun is both the means and the end in video games.

Distilled to the more pure concept: gaming is about entertaining the mind.

The only vision a game should have is maximizing entertainment of it's player base, and then execute technically to achieve this.


This is true.



Quoted

Grinding unlocks is deferred fun. It's doing "work" in order to increase your fun later down the road, if you ever get there.

By contrast, a good game delivers fun through the entire evolution of content. Grinding is just not a good game design.


100% pure opinion and preference. Nothing here is remotely close to fact.



Quoted

It is however effective in getting the brain to release feel-good chemicals, and it is very technically easy to implement, which explains the current generation of gamers growing up "pride and accomplishment".


And thus you prove my point. It's positive brain stimulus. That's what games and all other forms of entertainment exist for.

You personally not getting enjoyment out of something someone does get enjoyment out of is simply a matter of preference.



Quoted

Look at the stats: the overwhelming number of people who bought BF1 on any platform simply dropped it within less than a month.


Not that unusual.



Quoted

They never even tolerated the base game long enough to bother grinding out everything for it. I'd love to have some hard data on unlocks, but I would bet most people haven't unlocked a good portion of the guns, nor the specs because they just don't want to bother grinding for a game they only put a few hours a week into.


Assumptions and projecting based on your own preference.



Quoted

Flat access is also dramatically better in terms of delivering diverse but balanced that meaningfully impacts the game


Likely true in terms of objective balance, however...



Quoted

but doesn't unfairly penalize those that don't get off on "pride and accomplishment".


Again with begging the question. You're still trying to claim one method of enjoyment is superior to another.



Quoted

Grind-locking content is not all that different from pay-to-win.


It objectively is not, in the context of even-playing-field-balance games like Battlefield. In an MMO-style setting where gear actually outclasses lower gear, this can be true.
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Monday, March 19th 2018, 2:51am

If grinding was fun we wouldn't call it grinding.

You make it sound like I'm just making this stuff up as my own opinion. As opposed to something that is widely understood as not being ideal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grinding_(gaming)

Fact: games are about fun.

Fact: Grinding is hugely alienating to large numbers of players because they don't find it fun. It is probably one of the most controversial issues in gaming after paying to win and integrated gambling (aka loot grates).

Conclusion: grinding for content alienates large numbers of players. Especially when it bleeds into games that aren't traditionally very gind-heavy like FPS, RTS (see collapse of Dawn of War III).

It is widely understood if you play an MMO or MMO-RPG that you're going to be doing grinding which just keeps a bunch of gamers away from those games. But it's been infecting basically everything. There are really quite few games that hit working for progression well. The only two that come to mind are Terraria and Factorio.

I thought progression and unlocks in BF2/2142/BF3 felt pretty natural. BF4 felt pretty grindy but most of the core stuff came using the weapon to get stuff for the weapon and just scoring in the class.

The BF1 decided to go all grindy on top of all of the other issues that saddled the game.

Grind locking is 100% like pay-to-win, especially considering you can PAY TO BYPASS THE GRIND IN BF4 and BF1!!!!!!!!

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "tankmayvin" (Mar 19th 2018, 2:59am)


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Monday, March 19th 2018, 4:14am

The BF1 decided to go all grindy on top of all of the other issues that saddled the game.

Grind locking is 100% like pay-to-win, especially considering you can PAY TO BYPASS THE GRIND IN BF4 and BF1!!!!!!!!


It really isn't that grindy though. The most grindy things are Specs, which are also not a major factor. It's rewarding dedicated players, but they're nothing unmanageable; I fully expect someone who plays a given game as their main online game to have more "stuff" than a casual player who plays a small handful of hours a week, at most.

Don't get me wrong, I personally prefer games where everything is unlocked, though ironically I'd support exactly what you're complaining about: Shortcuts. Everything in life a choice between time or money, and this is no different. It is not, however, pay to win.
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Monday, March 19th 2018, 8:24am

Tankmayvin do you think the release of bf1 was grindy? Or more the later spec, weapon unlock, affliction add ons? I'm asking so I can get a better idea of what grindy is from your point of view. Could you also give an example of an in game unlock system you enjoy? It feels like you and bleeding are fighting over the definition of grind even though you both have a different view of what that word means.

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Monday, March 19th 2018, 1:05pm

Who cares about infantry KDR, it's irrelevant, especially in Battlefield.


I couldn't tell you who cares. I was only using it as evidence to refute the claim that you were some kind of a demi-god at the game, apparently making you more exempt from completing assignments than the bulk of the playerbase. A claim that was made in reference to you, but not by you, I'm aware.

Of course, it's a purer indicator of skill than the one which reflects simply how often you choose to spend in a near-impregnable steel fortress, blasting away at semi-helpless infantry.



Grinding unlocks doesn't meaningfully making you try other things, it makes you miopically focus on a carrot.


Players often settle on a handful of preferred loadouts. Whilst the balance of weapons fluctuates with every update, players are reluctant to thoroughly test each and every change. So the assignments encourage players to explore more of the nuances available in the game they purchased.

If EVERY assignment was "complete 500 kills with the M1911", then I absolutely would consider it "work" or a "grind", with no direct upsides. But I believe there are direct upsides, even before the eventual "deffered fun", except they're probably of less interest to you given that your main interest exists outside of infantry combat.





I think it's very fair to complain about unlocks. It is bad design in a competitive game, and the problem even has solutions that should please everyone.


Perhaps.

Except Battlefield is predominantly not a competitive game (see the development of incursions).




Conclusion: grinding for content alienates large numbers of players. Especially when it bleeds into games that aren't traditionally very gind-heavy like FPS, RTS (see collapse of Dawn of War III).


Maybe. But a lack of "progression" also leads to players switching to titles which offer something more in that regard.

Do you have any evidence to suggest that the current level of progression isn't finely poised to best appease both ends of the spectrum, other than a Wikipedia link or the fact that you'd bet on something?




BF4 felt pretty grindy but most of the core stuff came using the weapon to get stuff for the weapon and just scoring in the class.


Oddly, you seem to mention a more unfair system of unlocks, and state that you prefer it.


Having to use a weapon without attachments puts you at a fundamental disadvantage relative to the competition, whereas using an alternative weapon + variant in BF1 enforces no such penalty.





The BF1 decided to go all grindy



I remember there being an outcry that there was not enough progression in unlocking the base weapons. The DLC assignments were then likely designed to somewhat remedy that.