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11

Thursday, November 2nd 2017, 6:41pm

Half of BF1's MGs are Machine Rifles (not that BF3/4 didn't have a bunch as well), which are basically beefy ARs and are definitely meant to be used as such.

I think MGs will be about perfect if we get the TTK and bipod changes, I love the reverse spread mechanic.
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12

Friday, November 3rd 2017, 7:42am

If that's how things go, I'd be pretty much done with BF1.
That pretty much echos my sentiment aswell. I may have to reinstall BF4 and go back to that if the TTK shift is DOA.

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Friday, November 3rd 2017, 9:55am

I was quite enthusiastic about the TTK changes at first, considering that the retail TTK is pretty bad for a number of guns. However, the Medic rifles definitely got a short end of the stick. I mean, for example, the Fedorov Avtomat has pretty much gone from being an inferior M1918 BAR (retail) to being a completely inferior Huot (CTE). For most intents and purposes, the Medic guns really wouldn't be able to do anything that the Support guns can't do if the changes went through. Which is why an increase in rate of fire tier would have been necessary, but that's supposedly not doable.

If anything, I'd at least like to see DICE to meet down the middle. Close range TTK can stay about the same as right now, but give just about everything a range buff. Minimum damage buffs for Assault and Support guns, and then spread, recoil, and/or damage drop-off buffs for Medic guns. Not to forget about the shotgun consistency changes and some of the oddball outliers (like the M1903 Experimental and Russian 1895 Trench/Cavalry). I'd really love to see somewhat of an increase in the typical combat range.

For the Automatico M1918 and Hellriegel, I could possibly suggest something like 19 and 21 maximum damage, respectively. Of course, the Automatico M1918 would perhaps get a slight recoil decrease, similar to what the CTE changes depicted. This would still help the M12P16 fit in with Assault.

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14

Friday, November 3rd 2017, 8:20pm

SIPS FSM is good.

Prevents tap to win.


Why is "tap to win" always some disastrous taboo while "hold to win" is the only law of the land? Semi-auto rifles have never been good in Battlefield games and they never will be. They've been getting worse and worse since BF3.

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15

Friday, November 3rd 2017, 8:52pm

LMGs use hold to win because their design is for volume fire.

The reason tap to win is frowned upon is because it led to fairly braindead shooting in BF4. Pretty much every weapon could sacrifice like 33% of its maximum fire rate for infinite minSpread shooting. There wasn't really a need for a burst length larger than 2 unless you were close enough for every bullet to hit.

The SIPS FSM enforces different burst lengths at different distances through nonlinear spread increase.
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Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


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: Jun 9th 2012

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16

Saturday, November 4th 2017, 12:40am

LMGs use hold to win because their design is for volume fire.

The reason tap to win is frowned upon is because it led to fairly braindead shooting in BF4. Pretty much every weapon could sacrifice like 33% of its maximum fire rate for infinite minSpread shooting. There wasn't really a need for a burst length larger than 2 unless you were close enough for every bullet to hit.

The SIPS FSM enforces different burst lengths at different distances through nonlinear spread increase.



I do not see how sacrificing max fire rate for min spread shooting is a bad thing. Also it is not infinite minSpread shooting. You stop shooting when the enemy is dead. Lower ROF for more accurate shots = putting more damage at the back end of your DoT curve. Which means you are betting that the enemy will not kill you first. It is a sacrifice made by choice.

Also I would dispute the fact that you do not need a burst length of more than two unless every bullet hits. How about when the first 3 bullets hit? At this range, the player who use 2RB will have an inferior TTK than the player with 3RB.

Lastly, holding MB1 is not the indicator of volume fire. Holding MB1 for the BAR gets you 20 rounds at a time. Big volume. Volume fire is achieved by large magazines. A Type-88 with extended mag in BF3 could certainly achieve volume fire by bursting.
I was quite enthusiastic about the TTK changes at first, considering that the retail TTK is pretty bad for a number of guns. However, the Medic rifles definitely got a short end of the stick. I mean, for example, the Fedorov Avtomat has pretty much gone from being an inferior M1918 BAR (retail) to being a completely inferior Huot (CTE). For most intents and purposes, the Medic guns really wouldn't be able to do anything that the Support guns can't do if the changes went through. Which is why an increase in rate of fire tier would have been necessary, but that's supposedly not doable.

If anything, I'd at least like to see DICE to meet down the middle. Close range TTK can stay about the same as right now, but give just about everything a range buff. Minimum damage buffs for Assault and Support guns, and then spread, recoil, and/or damage drop-off buffs for Medic guns. Not to forget about the shotgun consistency changes and some of the oddball outliers (like the M1903 Experimental and Russian 1895 Trench/Cavalry). I'd really love to see somewhat of an increase in the typical combat range.

For the Automatico M1918 and Hellriegel, I could possibly suggest something like 19 and 21 maximum damage, respectively. Of course, the Automatico M1918 would perhaps get a slight recoil decrease, similar to what the CTE changes depicted. This would still help the M12P16 fit in with Assault.


Those max damage for Automatico and Hellriegel would be waaaay too low. Those are BF4 range of ROF and sub-BF4 damage.
But I agree with range buffs for SLRs. Min damage buff would have to be further considered though.

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17

Saturday, November 4th 2017, 2:48am

Also it is not infinite minSpread shooting. You stop shooting when the enemy is dead.


But each shot was at minSpread and if you continue to shoot that way, every shot will be too. Therefore infinite minSpread shooting.

Also I would dispute the fact that you do not need a burst length of more than two unless every bullet hits. How about when the first 3 bullets hit? At this range, the player who use 2RB will have an inferior TTK than the player with 3RB.


I do not see you disputing. In fact I see you agreeing.



The reason why SIPS FSM is so important is to actually make a burst meaningful. DICE-RandomDeviation explains


Here's some made up numbers to simply explain the design behind it. Say we have a weapon that takes 1 frame to reset the spread increase of a single shot. Firing a five round burst would mean we'd need 5 frames to recover to min spread. Alternatively we could shoot one shot, spend 1 frame recovering, and repeat that 4 more times. The total time spent is still 5 frames, but all shots were fired at min spread. Why would I ever shoot a longer burst? Microbursting allows for the same effective DPS, while avoiding spread increase.

If instead we apply a first shot spread increase multiplier, say 2 for this example, what happens is this:

For a five round burst it takes 2 frames to recover from the first shot and 1 for each of the following for a total of 6 frames. 5 single shots take 2 frames each to recover for a total of 10 frames. There's now actually a reason to vary burst lengths. Very short bursts or single shots retain their accuracy but require more recovery time. Longer bursts are less accurate, but have higher DPS if they're still accurate enough to hit. This makes these SMGs excellent at close range with longer bursts, and allows them to be accurate enough to get hits with short bursts or single shots at longer ranges but with a DPS reduction that stops them from being too good outside their intended range.

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Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


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18

Saturday, November 4th 2017, 3:48am

If anything, I'd at least like to see DICE to meet down the middle. Close range TTK can stay about the same as right now, but give just about everything a range buff. Minimum damage buffs for Assault and Support guns, and then spread, recoil, and/or damage drop-off buffs for Medic guns. Not to forget about the shotgun consistency changes and some of the oddball outliers (like the M1903 Experimental and Russian 1895 Trench/Cavalry). I'd really love to see somewhat of an increase in the typical combat range.

For the Automatico M1918 and Hellriegel, I could possibly suggest something like 19 and 21 maximum damage, respectively. Of course, the Automatico M1918 would perhaps get a slight recoil decrease, similar to what the CTE changes depicted. This would still help the M12P16 fit in with Assault.


I'd be happy with this. The long range buffs and making the Automatico one more BTK than the other SMGs are the truly important elements here.
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19

Saturday, November 4th 2017, 8:48am

Those max damage for Automatico and Hellriegel would be waaaay too low.


Eh, while I would have loved for the faster TTK model to have worked out, that suggested change would still have both guns being among the fastest killers in the game. With the CTE TTK change, the Automatico M1918 (still a five-shot kill) only kills as fast as a four-shot kill gun that fires 675 rounds per minute. That's a negligible difference from the Hellriegel in terms of TTK and is actually slightly below that of the Parabellum MG 14/17. That's still really fast, but really sacrifices much of the accessibility of those two guns for not THAT much in return (mostly hipfire accuracy). Now, if we were to make the Automatico M1918 a six-shot kill, that'd make it have a TTK of a five-shot kill gun that fires 720 rounds per minute. Thus, comparatively speaking, the proposed CTE TTK change is actually more of a nerf to the Automatico M1918 than my proposed change. And as for the five-shot kill guns, I would like to see a bit more maximum damage variation within that range (like somewhere between 20.84 to 24). The Hellriegel could exist and still be very competitive at the lower end of that range (20.84 to 21.5 or so).

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20

Tuesday, November 7th 2017, 10:23pm

It's unlikely that range buffs to weapons will actually translate to an increase in combat ranges in overall meta.

BF4 weapons were overall much better at range, tanks were better at range, etc. But when you look at Miffys data you find that the distribution of kill distances was actually pretty similar for BF4 and BF1.