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31

Friday, October 13th 2017, 8:36pm

When have you ever lost a game because someone had a muzzle brake on their AEK and not a compensator?


Reductio absurdum/straw-man.

Either you're not listening to what I have to say, not understanding, or basically trolling via logical fallacy.

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32

Friday, October 13th 2017, 8:41pm

You're arguing that people make imperfect attachment choices and ruin gameplay and the competitiveness of the game so it's better to take that choice away and introduce the variant system.

I'm asking you if you've ever actually lost because someone made the less than perfect choice of putting a muzzle brake on their AEK instead of a compensator?

Is my W/L gonna plummet if I have a grip and iron sights on my Huot at the same time? As soon as that grip is decoupled from the red dot it immediately causes my team to lose?

Battlefield is not a game so minutely focused that you'll lose matches because of little things like that. This isn't CSGO where your recoil patterns matter to the pixel and the degree.

With the exception of Hardline just about every gun is valid and usable compared to others of it's class. Are certain options and setups better or worse? Yeah. Is that gonna cause me to be useless to the team? No.

So I see absolutely no reason to take away the option to freely choose attachments. There's no real downside to it.

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33

Friday, October 13th 2017, 8:46pm

You're arguing that people make imperfect attachment choices and ruin gameplay and the competitiveness of the game so it's better to take that choice away and introduce the variant system.

I'm asking you if you've ever actually lost because someone made the less than perfect choice of putting a muzzle brake on their AEK instead of a compensator?

Is my W/L gonna plummet if I have a grip and iron sights on my Huot at the same time? As soon as that grip is decoupled from the red dot it immediately causes my team to lose?

Battlefield is not a game so minutely focused that you'll lose matches because of little things like that. This isn't CSGO where your recoil patterns matter to the pixel and the degree.

With the exception of Hardline just about every gun is valid and usable compared to others of it's class. Are certain options and setups better or worse? Yeah. Is that gonna cause me to be useless to the team? No.

So I see absolutely no reason to take away the option to freely choose attachments. There's no real downside to it.


And you're making a logical fallacy. AKA a bullshit argument.

Bad attachments don't have to directly translate to a lost round for them to be bad design. I never said this. You are making up absolutely absurd criteria to justify your carrot obsession.

I just made a clear and concise argument why they are bad and why they have a downside. You are trying to counter this argument by setting utterly absurd standards for the impact things must have in order for them to matter.

You've obviously never played BF3, or are so bad it doesn't matter for YOU, if you think "all guns are valid and usable compared to the other class weapons".

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34

Friday, October 13th 2017, 8:47pm

The people who lose you games lose you games because they don't defend a point or because they go faff around with the helicopter, not because their gun wasn't properly min-maxed.

Just because his gun is now perfect doesn't mean your team is gonna do any better.

The only way what your teammate is using affects you is if you lose the match or the point. Imperfect attachment choices don't cause that to happen so I see no reason to take them away.

You wanna min-max your gun then you go do that, nothing is stopping you. If someone has something else they like more why not let them do that? How is it bothering you?

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "LeGarcon" (Oct 13th 2017, 8:53pm)


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35

Friday, October 13th 2017, 9:00pm

I play games to have fun. What constitutes fun is different for every player. Winning is fun, but often because being on the winning team makes you less likely to be stuck in a corner with a bunch of crappy teammates; being on the winning team usually sets up having more fun, but even that isn't always true.

I was trying to finish the "Win 10 TDM games" assignment yesterday, and while not winning was frustrating because I was specifically trying to win (really the only time I actually care either way), despite being on an absolutely atrocious team for two games (100 to fifty-something, everyone else on my team with a massive negative K/D), I got 20-something kills, fewer than five deaths, and got the MVP ribbon. Despite being a bit frustrated because I specifically needed to see the "Victory" text to progress the assignment, it was fun. To me, winning isn't fun, doing well on a personal level is.

And doing well doesn't have to mean a great game where you get MVP on a terrible losing team, it can just mean doing well at whatever you're trying to do. I don't set up my classes for maximum spreadsheet super-calculated efficiency, I set them up for what I enjoy. I use all 12 class presets, and to make this work and make the game more fun, interesting, and varied, I make sure each one is unique and has a reason to be picked in any match; my classes are also usually effectively character cosplays from whatever series I feel like at any given time.

For example, for Medic I have these, all of which also have different primary/secondary weapons, though all have Smoke Grenades.

* An combat rifleman preset with Frag Rifle Grenades and Health Pouches, and with Bayonet Training, Cover, and Flak.
* A pure heals-based preset with the Syringe and Health Box, and with Stimulant Syringe, Hasty Retreat, and Quick Regen.
* A PTFO, push forward sort of preset with Smoke Rifle Grenades and the Syringe, and with Concealed Rescue, Inconspicuous, and Quick Unspot.


All of these are practical and useful, and I can swap between them depending on what the situation calls for; all three other classes are the same. Note that both gadgets and specs are only reused where it's unavoidable. The idea is to have more choice and variety, and also use all the options the game has to offer (including vehicle presets). This is long winded enough so I'll just leave it here.

This is fun.



Both Perino Def. and MG14 Sup. should receive 50% magsize increase. It won't really compensate for loss of LW bonuses but would make them somewhat useful.


Yeah, let's just utterly break their firing and reloading animations and throw authenticity out the window, instead of coming up with any number of other more interesting and accurate options. Like the ones I just posted in this thread on the last page.
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36

Friday, October 13th 2017, 9:12pm

I play games to have fun. What constitutes fun is different for every player. Winning is fun, but often because being on the winning team makes you less likely to be stuck in a corner with a bunch of crappy teammates; being on the winning team usually sets up having more fun, but even that isn't always true.

I was trying to finish the "Win 10 TDM games" assignment yesterday, and while not winning was frustrating because I was specifically trying to win (really the only time I actually care either way), despite being on an absolutely atrocious team for two games (100 to fifty-something, everyone else on my team with a massive negative K/D), I got 20-something kills, fewer than five deaths, and got the MVP ribbon. Despite being a bit frustrated because I specifically needed to see the "Victory" text to progress the assignment, it was fun. To me, winning isn't fun, doing well on a personal level is.

And doing well doesn't have to mean a great game where you get MVP on a terrible losing team, it can just mean doing well at whatever you're trying to do. I don't set up my classes for maximum spreadsheet super-calculated efficiency, I set them up for what I enjoy. I use all 12 class presets, and to make this work and make the game more fun, interesting, and varied, I make sure each one is unique and has a reason to be picked in any match; my classes are also usually effectively character cosplays from whatever series I feel like at any given time.

For example, for Medic I have these, all of which also have different primary/secondary weapons, though all have Smoke Grenades.

* An combat rifleman preset with Frag Rifle Grenades and Health Pouches, and with Bayonet Training, Cover, and Flak.
* A pure heals-based preset with the Syringe and Health Box, and with Stimulant Syringe, Hasty Retreat, and Quick Regen.
* A PTFO, push forward sort of preset with Smoke Rifle Grenades and the Syringe, and with Concealed Rescue, Inconspicuous, and Quick Unspot.


All of these are practical and useful, and I can swap between them depending on what the situation calls for; all three other classes are the same. Note that both gadgets and specs are only reused where it's unavoidable. The idea is to have more choice and variety, and also use all the options the game has to offer (including vehicle presets). This is long winded enough so I'll just leave it here.

This is fun.



Both Perino Def. and MG14 Sup. should receive 50% magsize increase. It won't really compensate for loss of LW bonuses but would make them somewhat useful.


Yeah, let's just utterly break their firing and reloading animations and throw authenticity out the window, instead of coming up with any number of other more interesting and accurate options. Like the ones I just posted in this thread on the last page.


You're right, but what does this have to do with shitty guns and shitty options on guns? You're talking about gadgets and perks.

Gadget/perk viability is a whole other discussion. I think BF1 has done well with gadget balance and viability. Things like mortar and whatnot will always be problematic to balance. I'm way more interested in seeing more gadgets than seeing more guns because there is a way bigger design space for gadgets and what they can do than guns.

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37

Friday, October 13th 2017, 9:25pm

You're right, but what does this have to do with shitty guns and shitty options on guns? You're talking about gadgets and perks.

Gadget/perk viability is a whole other discussion. I think BF1 has done well with gadget balance and viability. Things like mortar and whatnot will always be problematic to balance. I'm way more interested in seeing more gadgets than seeing more guns because there is a way bigger design space for gadgets and what they can do than guns.


It has everything to do with it; I'm not really interested in teh most practical setup, I'm interested in whatever appeals to me most.

In BF4 I had a setup that involved a Mk 14 with a PK-AS, Laser, Heavy Barrel, Ergo Grip, and Flat Green camo purely because it was a (closest to) replica of a rifle used by a character in a show I like. Now, that's actually not that impractical of a setup all things considered, though a little odd, but the point is at the end of the day I'm not going to pick options based on stats. I like to be aware of the stats and factor them in, but they'll never be the basis for my decisions.

I will have more fun using that setup than whatever the most practical, ideal, statistical setup for that gun is. There is nothing inherently more valid or correct about either style.
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38

Friday, October 13th 2017, 9:30pm

Thank you

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39

Friday, October 13th 2017, 9:31pm

You're right, but what does this have to do with shitty guns and shitty options on guns? You're talking about gadgets and perks.

Gadget/perk viability is a whole other discussion. I think BF1 has done well with gadget balance and viability. Things like mortar and whatnot will always be problematic to balance. I'm way more interested in seeing more gadgets than seeing more guns because there is a way bigger design space for gadgets and what they can do than guns.


It has everything to do with it; I'm not really interested in teh most practical setup, I'm interested in whatever appeals to me most.

In BF4 I had a setup that involved a Mk 14 with a PK-AS, Laser, Heavy Barrel, Ergo Grip, and Flat Green camo purely because it was a (closest to) replica of a rifle used by a character in a show I like. Now, that's actually not that impractical of a setup all things considered, though a little odd, but the point is at the end of the day I'm not going to pick options based on stats. I like to be aware of the stats and factor them in, but they'll never be the basis for my decisions.

I will have more fun using that setup than whatever the most practical, ideal, statistical setup for that gun is. There is nothing inherently more valid or correct about either style.


And why can't this be done with skins/sounds/aesthetic menu items instead of statistically irrelevant menu items?

I vaguely enjoy the whole skins things for vehicles, but it's totally ruined by the fact they are RNG instead of tied to in game actions such that they could be used as a flair or whatnot.

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40

Friday, October 13th 2017, 9:40pm

Because I also enjoy being able to customize how my weapon performs. As a side note, DICE's weapon designer (aka one of the Symthic guys) was recently asked what he would want to go back and redo most out of BF1's design, and his answer was full weapon customization.

I do agree RNG battlepacks are terrible, and skins should have all been tied to kill count, with a few to other specific requirements. But skins alone aren't enough, really.
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