Quoted from "LeGarcon"

I don't really care too much for truly perfect optimization. I just liked choosing what I liked when I liked it.

I liked having the choice. And I also really liked having lots of little things to unlock.

It was fun.

i mean, it is a fairly easy concept, i can't really see why so many people, dice included, don't understand it.

reminds me of how people in dark souls bash on both invaders and gankers, but if you put yourself in their shoes for once, you understand why they like it, you may not like it yourself, but at least you can understand.

same here, variety for sake of variety, progression hoops that are really just there to make you waste times... yes, these are things aimed for a different target that is not competitive players, but it's a target of players nonetheless, and i mean, when knowing recoil patterns in counter strike is a progression hoop in and of itself for competitive gaming, can you really blame people for liking ACTUAL progression hoops that actually make sense in what they are?

Both Perino Def. and MG14 Sup. should receive 50% magsize increase. It won't really compensate for loss of LW bonuses but would make them somewhat useful.

Quoted from "iota-09"

Quoted from "LeGarcon"

I don't really care too much for truly perfect optimization. I just liked choosing what I liked when I liked it.

I liked having the choice. And I also really liked having lots of little things to unlock.

It was fun.

i mean, it is a fairly easy concept, i can't really see why so many people, dice included, don't understand it.

reminds me of how people in dark souls bash on both invaders and gankers, but if you put yourself in their shoes for once, you understand why they like it, you may not like it yourself, but at least you can understand.

same here, variety for sake of variety, progression hoops that are really just there to make you waste times... yes, these are things aimed for a different target that is not competitive players, but it's a target of players nonetheless, and i mean, when knowing recoil patterns in counter strike is a progression hoop in and of itself for competitive gaming, can you really blame people for liking ACTUAL progression hoops that actually make sense in what they are?

But it's not a fairly easy concept to understand. Because it doesn't make sense. There is objectively good and objectively bad design that really has nothing to do with something you "like" or not. False choice is objectively bad design.

Look, I love games with deep customization. It's just that something like 90% of the time when you look past the quantity of choice you realize that most of the choices are actually false and so the customization isn't deep. This is bad design, it is LYING to the player.

The honest route would be to simply give you tons of model/cosmetic options to make a family of guns that are statistically identical look different. Because that's what we really had in BF3/4. A handful of key weapons (a small number similar or actually smaller than the BF1 pool). And a whole bunch of bad weapons that would have only be useful as alternative models for the good ones, because they barely saw use otherwise.

Deep choices, that are all viable in some playstyle, and deep accessory options that would all be viable for some playstyle is the ideal. It was absolutely not the reality in BF3, and it was barely better in BF4. BF1, for better or worse simply tried to fix that design flaw by cutting out the chaff.

What you guys are really saying is that you valued aesthetics over gameplay/function. And you know that's a totally fine personal opinion to have. But you cannot equate having those things to making an objectively better game. I personally find it hard to understand why you want style over substance in a game that is fundamentally competitive in that it pits players against each other in a zero-sum context.

I don't really care for competitive type things.

I played to customize guns and to unlock stuff and to have fun doing it.

I see absolutely no harm in letting people have lots of options to play with, even if they aren't 100% perfect or optimized.

Quoted from "LeGarcon"

I don't really care for competitive type things.

I played to customize guns and to unlock stuff and to have fun doing it.

I see absolutely no harm in letting people have lots of options to play with, even if they aren't 100% perfect or optimized.

It actively harms, or at the very least wastes the time of, the rest of the player base that is actually trying to setup their game stuff to be as effective as possible when they come up against other players.

The descriptions of the attachments in BF4 were also so vague as to be useless/misinform the players on top of everything. A solid half of the attachments were aesthetic options for others as well. How to tell that they didn't have subtle stat differences, etc? I said this critically about BF3/BF4 ages ago: you basically need the symthic tools to effectively customize your weapons for game performance. That's again bad design.

Again, I totally understand the "bag of reward carrots", as a game design to hook/entertain players, but you cannot ignore the detriment it has to design. The best compromise is giving people lots of carrots that straightforwardly only impact aesthetics and not overall gameplay.

More importantly, if you don't care about "competitive" stuff, why are you playing PVP games instead of PVE loot farming type games that are designed ENTIRELY around getting new shinies to slap on your character? There are far better games that satisfy that itch that BF1, especially with it's trashy unlock system and RNG boxes.

Quite bluntly, Battlefield is very much not a truly sweaty competitive game in the vein of CSGO or Rainbow Six Siege. Go play Incursions or one of those other games if it's that stressful playing alongside people who just wanna have fun.

Who wins or loses in Conquest is a crapshoot half the time anyway.

And honestly, for me at least, skins just aren't the same. I haven't played BF1 in weeks because I've gotten all my guns unlocked and now have nothing left to do. I like having actual tangible rewards that do something and matter and I love modifying weapons, not painting them.

And additionally, you've never lost a game because one dude was running a muzzle brake on his AEK instead of a compensator.

Quoted from "LeGarcon"

Quite bluntly, Battlefield is very much not a truly sweaty competitive game in the vein of CSGO or Rainbow Six Siege. Go play Incursions or one of those other games if it's that stressful playing alongside people who just wanna have fun.

Who wins or loses in Conquest is a crapshoot half the time anyway.

And honestly, for me at least, skins just aren't the same. I haven't played BF1 in weeks because I've gotten all my guns unlocked and now have nothing left to do. I like having actual tangible rewards that do something and matter and I love modifying weapons, not painting them.

And additionally, you've never lost a game because one dude was running a muzzle brake on his AEK instead of a compensator.

I don't think you understand what competitive is. All PVP games are by definition competitive because the outcome of every thing you do in it arises from a zero-sum interaction between yourself and at least one other player on the opposing team.

It's also not stressful at all, there is nothing wrong with people playing in whatever manner that makes it fun for them, it just makes the game easier for me. I just think that demanding that reward "carrots" dictate game design is fundamentally bad.

Good players have always been able to influence the outcome of a conquest round, if not outright dictate it. If you can't do that, you're just not very good and that's ok, but don't presume the average dictates the experience for everyone.

People play BF because it has always offered unique teamwork opportunities alongside engaging enemy players. Traditionally it has had complex game dynamics because of all of the synergistic options you can employ or that can be employed against you. You're totally fucking barking up the wrong tree if you assume you can get a similar "competitive" experience by just going to a small-scale tactical FPS like GSGO, R6, etc. For starters none of those games even have true maneuver combat, nevermind their complete lack of vehicles, which has been the main draw of BF games for me over like 10 + years of investing in the franchise.

The core of gaming is having fun, and having fun is generally measured with accomplishment: winning, beating levels, etc. The introduction of "carrots" to supplement this intrinsic reward in basically all types of games is.....newish. It's clearly not a good thing.

What you are basically demanding is that your thirst for carrots dictate the entire architecture of small arms balance in BF. That's short-sighted and selfish. There are literally hundreds of games that are loot-scumming at their core. Their are maybe 2-3 games that deliver the sort of gameplay of BF. Gameplay is top-dog.

I don't see how having options was detrimental.

What was wrong with it? You wanna argue that you should have gotten all the attachments from the get go then that's fine but I see no value in taking them all away.

Like why can't I have a grip while still using the iron sights on my Huot?

Quoted from "LeGarcon"

I don't see how having options was detrimental.

What was wrong with it? You wanna argue that you should have gotten all the attachments from the get go then that's fine but I see no value in taking them all away.

I just stated why: because false choice is bad for players who are trying to select options that optimize their performance in the game.

The false choices also become utter pariahs because a minority of players will deliberately suffer shitty performance because they "like" using something. Look at weapon usage stats in BF3, most of the guns saw basically zero use because they sucked compared to the trinity weapons.

These weapons then basically become nothing more than totally unused entries in a drop menu. This wastes the players time, it wastes the devs time. It's basically just complete waste for everyone but the collectors. Who are objectively a vocal minority, not a core playerbase the devs need to cater to.

When have you ever lost a game because someone had a muzzle brake on their AEK and not a compensator?